Bum CME Gibson ES-339

[GNAPPI]

FYI - It wasn't the salesman "going over" the guitar. It was their repair guy. On both the CME guitars I bought, I requested a custom set of strings and asked specifically that their repair guy widen the nut slots to accommodate the strings and ensure the neck was straight, truss rod functioned, no buzzing, etc. And in both cases, I was assured that it was a guitar technician who was doing the work and the evaluation and *YES* the salesman indicated that he would never see the guitar in person. On the 2nd one, I asked that the tech take pictures and send them to me prior to shipping to ensure that I didn't have a finish discrepancy between what was pictured and what they actually shipped.

All fair, since that's what you asked for and didn't get it, and if they couldn't or wouldn't (or didn't as it happens) provide it they should have stated that up front.

I was responding to BeBob rather global comments and mentioned your issues not knowing your specifics because as a comparison at least in my case what was in the box was IMO was (tolerably) mislabeled. I did not make any specific requests for an in hand inspection. I figured such requests by me at blow out prices would be unreasonable on my part so I elected to take my chances with whatever Gibson claims were on the box.

My "going over" comment was to address BeBob's statement:

"But this is what KILLED IT for me: repeated stories of customers making specific requests of the salesmen to personally inspect guitars to eliminate the possibility of specifically addressed defects before shipping, and having the salesmen make promises to do exactly that, but responding by shipping known defective guitars in spite of the customers' requests. "

[jzucker]

I think it's reasonable to assign the salesman as the "responsible agent", regardless of the fact that the salesman doesn't see the guitar. According to the manager at CME, the sales people are in a different location for the guitars so the salesman is unable to "see" the guitar. The pictures that were forwarded to me were taken by the technician and forwarded to the salesman.

All fair, since that's what you asked for and didn't get it, and if they couldn't or wouldn't (or didn't as it happens) provide it they should have stated that up front.

I was responding to BeBob rather global comments and mentioned your issues not knowing your specifics because as a comparison at least in my case what was in the box was IMO was (tolerably) mislabeled. I did not make any specific requests for an in hand inspection. I figured such requests by me at blow out prices would be unreasonable on my part so I elected to take my chances with whatever Gibson claims were on the box.

My "going over" comment was to address BeBob's statement:

"But this is what KILLED IT for me: repeated stories of customers making specific requests of the salesmen to personally inspect guitars to eliminate the possibility of specifically addressed defects before shipping, and having the salesmen make promises to do exactly that, but responding by shipping known defective guitars in spite of the customers' requests. "

[Stringswinger]

I totally get Jack's frustration here. Zero for two and I would quit as well. But at some point we have to look at the big picture. The deals are stellar (below dealer cost for new Gibson guitars is a pretty rare occurrence). MOST of the guitars are stellar (the three that I have are as good as any Gibson that I have played from any era) and at some point we have to give CME the benefit of the doubt. They took on an immense undertaking (liquidating a factory backstock from one retail location in short order is quite the task). They made incredible deals for those of us smart enough to take advantage. They made things right when the guitars did not satisfy. Yes, if they told a customer like Jack that they would do something and then failed to do so, that is wrong. They should have been more upfront about the lack of service included (which would be totally fair given the price points). But I am pretty sure that Jack's experience is the exception, not the rule.

CME has done right by me and I will sing their praise and defend them against all comers. If my 4th and final CME Gibson turns out to be a dud, I will return it for a refund and still feel like they did me right. IMO expecting top dollar retail service when buying a guitar at a below wholesale price is being a bit greedy. If you want first class service, buy a first class ticket.

[wmachine]

Deleted

[Stringswinger]

Okay understood this is a concern. But in reality, this is just another "calculated risk". But this one you take personally and use it as a reason not buy. Let's say "on principal". And nothing wrong with that. But you are the one losing the opportunity. If your self pride is worth that, fine. But taking that stance affects nobody but you.
And furthermore not driving across town to remedy that problem for yourself as far as I'm concerned is nothing short of shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm not criticizing your choice, I'm just appealing to an objective sense of value and what it is worth to get what you want, one way or another.

wmachine, you attributed a quote to me that is not my post. Please edit.

[jzucker]

I'm not frustrated. I'm just weary of unboxing and reboxing guitars. I'm too busy to be frustrated. Got a zillion things going on with my life and spending hours going back and forth with these guitars from Gibson is just not a high priority and not a wise time investment so I'm moving on. Regardless of how folks want to spin it, i can honestly say that the last 5-6 new Gibsons I've bought or played in the store were dogs whereas the last 5 seventy seven guitars I've bought or played smoke their gibson counterparts in every way which is sad considering they traveled nearly 7000 miles by boat to get here and had no setup other than the factory one!

I don't have a big enough attraction to gibson to keep trying to fight that trend. Maybe if I had 30 guitars it wouldn't be an issue but I have 2 archtops, a semihollow, a tele and a strat so a guitar has to be a really good example of its breed to be a keeper and none of the gibsons I've played recently comes close to being in the same league as what I already have.

I totally get Jack's frustration here. Zero for two and I would quit as well. But at some point we have to look at the big picture. The deals are stellar (below dealer cost for new Gibson guitars is a pretty rare occurrence). MOST of the guitars are stellar (the three that I have are as good as any Gibson that I have played from any era) and at some point we have to give CME the benefit of the doubt. They took on an immense undertaking (liquidating a factory backstock from one retail location in short order is quite the task). They made incredible deals for those of us smart enough to take advantage. They made things right when the guitars did not satisfy. Yes, if they told a customer like Jack that they would do something and then failed to do so, that is wrong. They should have been more upfront about the lack of service included (which would be totally fair given the price points). But I am pretty sure that Jack's experience is the exception, not the rule.

CME has done right by me and I will sing their praise and defend them against all comers. If my 4th and final CME Gibson turns out to be a dud, I will return it for a refund and still feel like they did me right. IMO expecting top dollar retail service when buying a guitar at a below wholesale price is being a bit greedy. If you want first class service, buy a first class ticket.

[rolijen]

I live a couple hours from Chicago and called to ask to see if I could come check out particular 'floor models' and was told that the guitars are shipped out from CME's warehouse, I asked if I could go to the warehouse and was told it's not open to the public. The salesman also indicated that the guitars are factory sealed until CME takes them out to inspect and put paperwork in the case.

So, like so many others here, I took the plunge and ordered one sight unseen and found it to be superb (did an NGD post a couple days before Christmas). The only puzzling thing was the amount of wood debris/sawdust in the case and on the guitar. It was quite surprising. Fortunately, I found no scratches or damage as a result, but it did take a good wipedown and a thorough vacuuming to eradicate the crud.

Regarding CME's actual store, going there is a treat. They have a great selection of acoustic guitars, Strats, Teles, and more Les Pauls than I've seen since buying my first Les Paul from the "Wall of Guitars" at Guitar Center on Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco all those years ago. My CME visit was fun and I'm looking forward to visiting again soon. They run a good operation and take care of their customers. Of course, your mileage may vary.

[lawson-stone]

I live a couple hours from Chicago and called to ask to see if I could come check out a particular 'floor models' and was told that the guitars are shipped out from CME's warehouse, I asked if I could go to the warehouse and was told it's not open to the public. The salesman also indicated that the guitars are factory sealed until CME takes them out to inspect and put paperwork in the case.

So, like so many others here, I took the plunge and ordered one sight unseen and found it to be superb (did an NGD post a couple days before Christmas). The only puzzling thing was the amount of wood debris/sawdust in the case and on the guitar. It was quite surprising. Fortunately, I found no scratches or damage as a result, but it did take a good wipedown and a thorough vacuuming to eradicate the crud.

Regarding CME's actual store, going there is a treat. They have a great selection of acoustic guitars, Strats, Teles, and more Les Pauls than I've seen since buying my first Les Paul from the "Wall of Guitars" at Guitar Center on Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco all those years ago. My CME visit was fun and I'm looking forward to visiting again soon. They run a good operation and take care of their customers. Of course, your mileage may vary.

In March 2016 I was in Chicago to do some research at the University's Oriental Institute and visit some dear friends, and decided on impulse to make a "pilgrimage" to CME. While there, I was excited that they have booths for trying out guitars, and pulled down a VOS 1959 ES175 to spend about 45 minutes or so playing it. I was just exploiting their friendliness, not planning remotely to buy... then looked at the price tag: $1999.95. GULP. Went to the counter, did the deal, became the proud owner of what has to be one of the earliest CME killer Gibson deals. So when this spate of deals came out, I went for a "figured" ES175 and didn't regret it. Just a fabulous guitar, a joy to play, a stunner to see.

Needless to say, all my future instrument searches (once I have money again!) will start at CME.

[BeBob]

I think it's reasonable to assign the salesman as the "responsible agent", regardless of the fact that the salesman doesn't see the guitar. According to the manager at CME, the sales people are in a different location for the guitars so the salesman is unable to "see" the guitar.

I live a couple hours from Chicago and called to ask to see if I could come check out a particular 'floor models' and was told that the guitars are shipped out from CME's warehouse, I asked if I could go to the warehouse and was told it's not open to the public. The salesman also indicated that the guitars are factory sealed until CME takes them out to inspect and put paperwork in the case.

Some people have made assumptions that because I'm in Chicago and CME is in Chicago, that that affords me some sort of special access for pre-sale inspection. It doesn't.

Jzucker's and rolijen's comments parallel my experience in trying to see the guitars in person. It wasn't an option. When I asked if I could inspect the guitars before the sale I was flatly denied. I was told that the guitars being shipped in from Gibson were being stocked in a different location than the brick and mortar store, and that I would not be allowed to perform a pre-sale inspection. I literally had to choose to take the calculated risk of buying or not buying something sight unseen. I thought that it was a pretty rude way to treat a local customer who has been in the brick and mortar store on many an occasion. The fact that they were totally unwilling to be accommodating to local customers rendered my proximity as a Chicago local worthless. It certainly did not endear me to the store or to their management. Even worse, if I had taken the calculated risk would have had to add City sales tax and State sales tax to the transaction, which adds a significant amount to the transaction price. I'd have to pay significantly more than everyone else has had to pay. For me, the deal just wasn't that appealing. I own plenty of Gibsons, and I don't feel the need to take a calculated risk to buy another one.

It's interesting that I hear people claim that they were "smart" enough to take advantage of these opportunities. I don't think "smart" factors into the equation. For me the eagerness to buy is more about scratching an itch than being smart.

[BeBob]

I'm not frustrated. I'm just weary of unboxing and reboxing guitars. I'm too busy to be frustrated. Got a zillion things going on with my life and spending hours going back and forth with these guitars from Gibson is just not a high priority and not a wise time investment so I'm moving on. Regardless of how folks want to spin it, i can honestly say that the last 5-6 new Gibsons I've bought or played in the store were dogs whereas the last 5 seventy seven guitars I've bought or played smoke their gibson counterparts in every way which is sad considering they traveled nearly 7000 miles by boat to get here and had no setup other than the factory one!

I don't have a big enough attraction to gibson to keep trying to fight that trend. Maybe if I had 30 guitars it wouldn't be an issue but I have 2 archtops, a semihollow, a tele and a strat so a guitar has to be a really good example of its breed to be a keeper and none of the gibsons I've played recently comes close to being in the same league as what I already have.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. For some people it's worth spending a lot of time to try to get a discount on any expensive item, because expensive items are expensive, and they have sufficient free time to spend in an effort to save money. For other people time is a more precious commodity than money. For them the prospect of having to commit time to dealing with a lemon and returning it ends up making the deal not worth considering. Anyone can spin the arguments for or against buying either way, because both points of view are equally valid.

My personal position is that being the owner of some Custom Shop Gibsons that are extremely fine instruments, I've been disappointed with what I've seen of the recent production Gibsons and I'm just not interested in the Memphis floor models. For me that prospect of going through headaches like Jzucker went through just doesn't make the purchase a smart decision for me. For other people who think they made a smart decision -- good for you. Congrats. But please, stop implying that those of us who have not bought are not smart, or that we have made some sort of mistake.

7000 miles by boat? Where are you located?

[LtKojak]

7000 miles by boat?

Well, trippy.com says the following about the distance from Tokyo to Chicago:

without making any stops, flight distance is 6,312 miles

So, 7,000 miles is a fair ballpark estimate when the goods come from Japan to the US by boat.

[skiboyny]

Regardless of how folks want to spin it, i can honestly say that the last 5-6 new Gibsons I've bought or played in the store were dogs whereas the last 5 seventy seven guitars I've bought or played smoke their gibson counterparts in every way which is sad considering they traveled nearly 7000 miles by boat to get here and had no setup other than the factory one!

Really seems like this is the point you have been trying to make...

[wmachine]

But this is what KILLED IT for me: repeated stories of customers making specific requests of the salesmen to personally inspect guitars to eliminate the possibility of specifically addressed defects before shipping, and having the salesmen make promises to do exactly that, but responding by shipping known defective guitars in spite of the customers' requests.

It's one thing to get a bad guitar from the luck of the draw and have to return it. That's an inconvenience. It's something entirely different when you take the time to ask for a particular problem to be examined, you're given a false promise just to make the sale, and then they ship something to you that has been misrepresented to the point that it isn't even close to the item that you've agreed upon. In that situation a free-return guarantee doesn't amount to beans to me. In that scenario, the customer has been lied to and his time has been wasted because the salesman is essentially dishonest and indifferent to the needs of the customer.

I'm not encouraged to see people like Vinny say that he's bought several guitars and had a 40% reject rate, and to hear other people report muliple returns as well -- especially if they had been working with the salesmen who promised to personally inspect the guitars so that these kinds of events would not happen. This may not matter to those of you who don't care about wasting your time, but after hearing jzucker's story, I've heard enough that I'm just not interested. I'm local and I won't even drive across town for one of these guitars. My time has value, and I find it hard to waste it on a salesman who makes false promises and obviously places so little value on my time that he's willing to waste it by sending me garbage that has to be returned.

(The following response I earlier mistakenly made to Stringwinder, not BeBob. Many apologies for the confusion)
Okay understood this is a concern. But in reality, this is just another "calculated risk". But this one you take personally and use it as a reason not buy. Let's say "on principal". And nothing wrong with that. But you are the one losing the opportunity. If your self pride is worth that, fine. But taking that stance affects nobody but you.
And furthermore not driving across town to remedy that problem for yourself as far as I'm concerned is nothing short of shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm not criticizing your choice, I'm just appealing to an objective sense of value and what it is worth to get what you want, one way or another.
Edit: This was an earlier post, and you have since clarified your position. I understand you much better, now.

[jzucker]

So, i just went to pay my AMX bill and it looked really high. Upon looking closely at recent transactions, I saw no refund for the guitar I returned 2 weeks ago. I received a refund notification on Jan 18 but as of Jan 24, no money has made it back onto my card.