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So yeah, that's basically my doubt.
I want to change from a sanded bridge (11mm) which is way too low for my liking of tone, it doesn't have the little gap below, meaning the whole bridge is making contact with the guitar top which doesn't allowed to sound at its best tonal capacity.
I got another bridge with the guitar (besides the one that was on it) that is almost new, and at its whole height (19-20mm) I tried it out but the action was way too high (6.8mm) and with the other (sanded) bridge it was very comfortable (2.5mm or something) and I even had to tighten the truss rod.
I want to use the other taller bridge, even I have to sand it, I just don't want it to make contact with the top so that I get better sound projection, so I need the little gap below.
What kind of adjustment shoold I make in order to stay and the same or similar action with the new bridge?
I've been thinking a lot about tightening the truss rod to compensate the action without having to take out so much material out of the bridge, but I thought I better ask first.
Pablo.
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12-27-2017 01:15 AM
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The usual theory is that having perfect contact with the entire bridge base gives the best and loudest tone. Having gaps is generally considered a flaw, unless there is a gap designed into the base. That said, every guitar is a little different, and may react differently to the bridge. In any case, a taller bridge results in higher action, there is no way around that. You can remove material from the top or bottom or both as you choose. The truss rod should not be used to change the action. It's only used to get the desired amount of relief in the neck. The first place to adjust the action is the nut. Get that set to the correct height, then set the desired relief with the truss rod, then adjust the action with the bridge. With a solid bridge, that requires removing material from it. As I said, you can remove it from the top, bottom, or both. It takes a lot of careful sanding, fitting, and repeating. Take off too much and you have a real problem.
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Whoa,...sgosnell
Hold on a minute there.
You understand this is about a Maccaferri type guitar yes?
I will respectfully disagree with your comments about the bridge in this case.
But absolutely yes, 100% agreed regarding action and the nut and relief.
Notice, however, that most (but not all) Maccaferri guitars have zero frets.
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Pablo:
You may be able to adjust an existing bridge yourself. But based on what you have said, I VERY much recommend getting it done by an experienced luthier.
An experienced luthier will know to not use neck relief (via the truss rod) as a way to adjust action height.
An experienced luthier who knows Maccaferri type guitars will also know that it likely has a zero-fret (so advising the nut as a specific part of the action setup process can be confusing).
This same luthier will also have experience with making a fairly light weight bridge, often hollowed out below, often with a notable gap along much of the bottom surface as you describe.
Downforce is VERY limited on a Maccaferri guitar vs. the arch tops that are most often discussed here.
Sooooooo,...
First you need to decide how much neck relief you want and adjust the truss rod accordingly.
Then check the height of the zero fret - or check the nut height if there is no zero fret.
Now you can decide on the actual bridge height you need for your desired action.
You can not just start sanding away at an existing bridge. First you need to look under it to see to what extent it has been hollowed out.
At one extreme, I have seen heavy ebony bridges that are completely solid, and extremely light-weight dyed poplar bridges that are almost completely hollow at the other extreme.
If the bridge has been deeply hollowed, you can not really start sanding away at the top.
Likewise, if the bridge tapers sharply as it rises, sanding from the bottom can also be a problem.
You have to study the bridge in question and decide if it can be altered as needed.
You also need some experience to decide how light-weight a bridge will best suit the particular guitar and player.
A light weight hollow bridge with limited top contact at the ends can often deliver the LOUDEST and most characteristically raspy sound from these guitars. But in my opinion you want someone who has done this quite a few times to work on your guitar.
All in my opinion.
ChrisLast edited by ptchristopher3; 12-27-2017 at 02:17 AM. Reason: Wanted to
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Well, Here where I live (South America) there are no Luthiers who know about this style of guitars lol all of them only make classical guitars, as far as I'm concerned. I already tried asking them if they could build a Seller guitar and they had never heard of it, one said he could try but nothing came out.
So I bought this (Gitane D5-255) one from a guy who, by miracle, knows this style and had a couple guitars, he had sanded the bridge to a point in which doesn't have the gap, didn't have the mustache fixed to it, wasn't intonated, had a huge relief on the neck, the truss rod nut was so loose that if fell out of its place...so yeah, a lot of things which I had to fix by myself, the only one left is the bridge thing.
How comes there are guitars that have a 20mm bridge and 2mm action at 12th? These guitars are supposed to have a tipped back neck https://image.ibb.co/bOse0m/727_4.jpg
Well...How the hell am I supposed to achieve that without adjusting the untouchable, mystical, legendary and feared truss rod? As far as I'm concerned is the only thing that could take back the neck to where it was 10 years ago before the poor guitar was left aside until this guy decided to sell it or that's what I think.
If you know about a Maccaferri Luthier in Colombia then let me know, otherwise I doubt these other guys (Who only put the pieces together) know much more about these guitars than all I had have to investigate on the internet and done by hand, though I might try.
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Ah, I understand your situation.
Well the DG-255 is a perfectly good guitar, and well worth getting sorted out.
If you want to work step by step together, that is fine. We may get stuck at the part where you need to actually shape the bridge, but if we go slowly i suspect you can get things quite a bit better than they are now.
Let me know if you want to try this.
If so then please let me know the string set you are using, and also please confirm the situation with the “mustache” ends. Are they correctly glued to the top? The bridge is supposed to sit between these ends, but often slightly forward or back from the ends to set bridge compensation (aka “intonation”).
The DG-255 is a well made guitar.
Chris
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Yes sure!
Well, The moustache weren't fixed as I said, so I first I intonated the guitar moving the bridge around and using the harmonics after I fixed the bow on the neck, obviously. When I found the spot on which it was as close as possible to harmonics on 12th fret and the fretted note, I fixed the moustache, my dad helped me a bit with this part since he's a carpenter, He didn't glue them to the guitar, he used regular tape.
He drew the moustache on 2 pieces of tape, cut one off, stick it on the guitar body, then, he stick the other piece of tape below the moustache, and glued that one over the one that was on the top. He did that to be able to take the moustache off easily, in case I needed to fix the intonation again without damaging the guitar body. Very clever IMO.
The string set is Argentine Strings 0.11
Thanks
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Ok, so at this point can you tell me how much relief there is in the neck? Press the b string down at the first fret and the 14th fret and tell me how much clearance there is for the b string above the 7th fret. NO NEED to measure, just describe it compared to the diameter of the b string. For example, is the clearance more than the diameter of the b string, and if so, how much (1 1/2 times, 2 times, etc.)
Now do the same for the A string again describing the clearance compared to the diameter of the BBB string. (Not the diameter of the A string.
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Were the moustache ends removed from the top at some point? I assume the DG-255 left the factory with the moustache ends attached to the top.
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Doing what you said, the clearance was as twice on the B string and 1 1/2 on A string.
The guitar was given to me with the moustache ends apart
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OK so that is a reasonable amount of relief for this guitar and the strings you are using. This will sound like quite a bit of relief to some players here, but for hard playing and light string style of this guitar it sounds like a great starting point.
I know your have already mentioed, but please let me know the height of the A and B strings above the 12th fret, and the height of the A and B strings above the top at the bridge.
Can you also send a pic of the bridge you wish to use? Best would be a pic of the bridge in place, then a pic of the underside of the bridge with it removed.
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To answer your questions from earlier:
The truss rod is absolutely NOT for adjusting action. It is for adjusting relief. Yes this has a notable effect on action, but confusing the two things (action and relief) leads to all sorts of setup mistakes.
Yes in principle the Selmer/Maccaferri design differs notably from a classical guitar. In a classical guitar, the tension on the top is achieved via torque on the bridge - pulling upward on the rear of the bridge and pushing downward on the front. This is the same as on the endless cowboy/folk flat-top acoustic guitar designs out there.
The Selmer/Maccaferri design requires downforce on the bridge. So the string distance above the top at the bridge is typically higher than on a classical or flat-top steel string guitar.
But I suggest not getting too worked up over the actual neck angle or exact string height above the top at the bridge. It is amazing just how loud these guitars can be with remarkably little downforce on the top, and remarkably little break angle over the bridge.
The total picture is a combination of downforce at the bridge, top thickness, AND top tension via the shape created by the top bracing. We talk about bracing as if it just keeps things from falling apart. But equally important is how bracing creates stresses in the top, and how bracing carries vibrations across the top (where there is no grain to speed things along in a solid-topped instrument.)
There are Maccaferri guitars with staggeringly little downforce at the bridge that can still shake a picture off the wall at the far end of the room.
The DG-255 is sort of the base model for a petit-bouche guitar that you could successfully gig with anywhere on earth.
The variables you are dealing with are eventual bridge and action height, and BRIDGE MASS. And sure, the separation from the top under the middle of the bridge.
Stay calm and be careful with the sand paper and this can all work out just fine.
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Alright.
A String on 12th = 3.5mm exactly.
on bridge top = 13,7mm
B String on 12th = 2.8mm
on bridge top = 12.7mm
Bridge in place: 20171227 152030 — imgbb.com
removed: 20171227 151800 — imgbb.com
Btw I borrowed a caliper from my dad for the measuments
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Thanks for the accurate measurements. Now what is your preferred action height at the 12th fret for the A and B strings?
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So Just to ask the seemingly idiotic questions:
What is wrong with using the bridge that is 13,7 high at the A string and 12,7 high at the B string?
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What I mean is, the first thing to try would be to re-shape the bottom of the low bridge to see if this helps your sound. Just go ahead and shape the bottom of the low bridge to be similar to the bottom of the higher bridge.
Then also send a pic of the underside of the low bridge.
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Also realize that 3,0 or 3,5 mm at the 12th is considered quite low action for this type of guitar.
I definitely prefer that to some of the crazy high actions players use. Just note that it is fairly low.
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I never it was wrong, I can just play okay with it, I just think It would be much better with the taller bridge, and looking at it well, I don't want it really tall, I'm fine with just 15mm or so.
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
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I've been reading around about it and it seems that actually many people would qualify Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
2mm as low
2.5 as medium
3mm as high
3.5 insane lol
Yes, in the gypsy jazz environment.
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Hi Pablo,
I will certainly bow to your recent opinions on commmon action heights. It seems I am well behind the times for 2017 thinking on action height with manouche guitars.
On the other hand, when I look at some great players on video there seems to be some air under those strings.
Back to your bridge:
The low bridge looks fine from below. Yes cutting an arch will weaken the bridge. But realize that the downforce on this bridge is very light. The bridge will be fine.
You do not need to arch it very deeply at all. I suggest starting with an arch that is only about 3mm at the highest point. Note the width of the contact area on your higher bridge and aim for a similar “foot” size on the lower bridge.
Please let us know how this works out for you.
EDIT: Fixed some very odd spelling errors.Last edited by ptchristopher3; 12-29-2017 at 12:15 AM.
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omg I tried and so far it's been great, It's much louder now, though it's buzzing a little so I might have to lift the bridge a little with something below it, not big deal tho
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Great to hear the good news.
It will work well to glue some rosewood to the underside of the bridge at the ends where the bridge rests on the top, then sand for a clean fit.
I suggest adding maybe 3mm, then work your way down as far as you can before the buzz gets to be a problem.
Also, you can make a new bridge from scratch if you are in the mood, or re-work the tall one into something usable.
Just keep the overall mass of any new bridge fairly low. It is important to the punch and volume of this guitar.
Nice to know it is working out for you.
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