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This probably seems like a stupid question to some of you, but I'd really like to know. Maybe, just because i'm old and the amps of my day didn't have one, but why is there a 'gain' control when you have a perfectly good volume knob? Case in point, I was looking at the Trace Elliot 'Elf' bass head as a possible replacement for my long gone MB200 and noticed that it has a 'gain' control - it also has a 'volume' knob to make it louder - I just don't know why the 'gain' is there - please enlighten me.
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12-26-2017 11:34 AM
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On many amps, the gain control sets the level on the preamp stage. The master volume controls the power amp. If you turn the gain way up and the volume down, you'll get a distorted tone as the preamp is overdriven.
Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
Also, if you've got an amp with more than one channel, the gain controls will allow you to set the relative levels of the channels, and then the master volume will control the overall level.
Tube amp purists will point out that preamp stage distortion is a different animal from power tube distortion, and they're right, but turning an amp up to the point of distortion in a home setting is a good way to really piss off your neighbors.
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Thanks, Boston Joe, that explains it. I figured it had something to do with making the amp distort but why put it on a single channel bass head unless you wanted to overdrive it - that part makes NO sense to me and, once again, I' d be paying for a feature that's no use to me. I noticed that my Katana 50 has one of those, too - I just keep it as low as possible.
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It isn’t even just for distortion - I don’t know the science of “why” but having the gain at a certain point on some amp fattens up the sound without overdriving. The Bud is like that and several other amps I have/have played. So I always just think of it as another way to customize the sound and tweak to get what you want, even when it is not specifically to get overdrive.
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Some bassists like a "growly" sound. Overdriving the amp can get that. And as Rio mentioned, sometimes rather than distortion, it's more of a saturation kind of thing. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
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From my own tastes, I like and strive for a certain quality of sound, a certain response in the touch and response of the amp. Now when I'm playing through my solid body, the input signal is hotter than that same kind of pickup coming from my hollow body. The energy is retained in a solid body and off the bat, it's louder; more present. Using the gain control lets me get the sound, feel and response out of my amp for two different instruments with a similar volume.
That's one practical aspect of the gain for me.
David
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I have also have a Katana 50. On the CLEAN mode, I view that gain similarly to the gain control on a mixer. I find there's a real sweet spot, that will vary depending on the guitar and pickup. You need to have enough gain for the preamp to work with in it's full range without distorting, and that will give enough signal to the next stage. If the gain is too low and you listen carefully I think will find the sound will be very lifeless without real dynamics. Try really listening with your golden ears. :-) Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
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The gain control can make a difference in the sound of the amp. Some people claim the AI Clarus is sterile-sounding, but cranking up the gain (called volume on the Clarus for whatever reason, the other volume is labeled Master Volume) warms it up. I've also found that using the effects loop helps a lot. Just putting a short patch cable across the send and return jacks makes a big difference. With the gain cranked up above halfway and something (anything) in the effects loop, it's very warm, closer to a tube sound. Tweak the knobs to taste, like on any amp.
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On my Rivera you can approach distortion a couple of ways. Turn the Gain way up and then Master to taste delivers the typical Bluesey pre-amp crunch. In contrast, turn the Master to 10 and then nudge up the Gain knob for volume and you get fairly controllable power tube distortion -- more of a singing sustain.
Then of course there is the "boost" function, which takes you up a level into metal/shred territory. I don't really go there
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There was a time when an undistorted guitar sound made little sense to most guitarists. Even jazz guitarists of the period wanted the "bag of bees" sound. Enter the master volume/gain stage(s) amp designs.
Some of us, however, really want a cleaner sound. My favorite amps have V, B, and T control.
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I prefer a more elaborate setup. I like a mid control as well.
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Just like autism, there are many gradual levels on the distortion spectrum. A little bit of added gain can add just a nice warmth and smooth out the attack a bit. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
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Gain is an engineering term that has never been applied properly in the context of guitar amp control labelling. Unfortunately, "gain" is used by guitarists as a euphemism for distortion while engineers use it as a measurement of voltage amplification. In the engineering sense, gain only becomes distortion when too much of it occurs in one stage to the point that clean headroom is exhausted and distortion ensues. Confusion ensues when a term is used by two different populations who define the term differently. In that context it's pointless to try to make sense of it. There's not enough consistency in how the term is used for you to get anywhere. Your best bet is to turn the knob, figure out what it does, and ignore the label.
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Yes, well, we can also thank Leo Fender for confusing the terms "vibrato" and "tremolo" for several generations of kids. Originally Posted by BeBob
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Maybe Leo Fender had it right originally. His 1946 Princeton Amp (Woody) went on when you plugged it into the wall. There were no controls. Why would you need any? The guitar (Princeton steel) had a volume and tone control, right? Here's a shot of the "control panel."
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So I should stick to driving a Model T? But what if I like a '55 Chevy? or a Lexus? Originally Posted by Greentone
Maybe Leo Fender had it right originally. His 1946 Princeton Amp (Woody) went on when you plugged it into the wall. There were no controls. Why would you need any? The guitar (Princeton steel) had a volume and tone control, right? Here's a shot of the "control panel."
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On a somewhat related note, I have been having an issue with my car stereo (long story, but when it got repaired the calibration got messed up, so there's a lot of hiss with the treble), and I have been having a devil of a time finding some "clean" sound to test it out.
I mean, even those clean jazz records from the 50's have a lot of compression, a lot of horn players have a trill or hiss as part of their sound, most drums have snare. It seems we like a bit of hair with our music.
On top of that I have tinnitus and high-level hearing loss. So is it me or the music or the stereo? Driving me crazy--taking it in to have the audio guys figure it out this week, because I don't trust my own ears.
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And then there's this, which is the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title...
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I find that a gain knob is convenient if you play multiple guitars through the same amp, but if generally using the same guitar than spending a lot of time tweaking your pick-up height and pole piece adjustment can sort of make that gain knob redundant.
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So what's the chicken-head knob at the top left on Woody do?
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Ahh...that's a volume knob.
It's actually the early Champion amp/guitar combo where I believe the amp has no knobs, IIRC.
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I find the preamp gain to be the critical thing about understanding most amps and their response. Explore its range, and the amp can surprise you. Matching the players dynamics, the guitars output and the amps gain, and learning to achieve that in all volumes and rooms is kind of what amps are about for me.
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Embarrassing personal story: Originally Posted by sgosnell
Several years ago I was looking at getting a Stack like a Marshall or a Peavey. I called myself testing them out on the showroom floor. I had the volume and the gain low because I did not want anyone to hear my poor playing. All of the amps sounded terrible and very sterile.
After going to 5 or 6 music stores, I finally had a salesperson who knew what they were doing and he cranked up the gain knob on a Marshall JVM410 while lowering the volume knob.
Like you said, that cranked preamp/gain knob warmed things up considerable and I finally had that true Marshall sound. Lesson learned, at least with tube amps. I am not sure how it works with solid state amps at this point.
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I just checked. Even the early Champion seems to have a volume knob. Which combo was it?
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you must be thinking of the '45-'46 Kauffman & Fender.
they were custom builds and they were inconsistent. some had knobs, others did not.
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