-
Ozoro - glad I was able to give you enough to get a good sound. That's encouraging.
-
03-08-2018 01:31 PM
-
So - took the Helix and Alto FRFR to a band rehearsal today (first time we'd played together in over two months) and it sounded OK - well, good actually. Perhaps at a bit under gig volume, although hard to be sure. But anyhow, fellow band members liked the sounds, and especially they loved the Larry Carlton/Dumble amp-esque "Litiga" patch I got from Marco Fanton - "you're bringing that sound with you tomorrow, or there will be trouble" they joked (I hope they were joking...). And so, perhaps against my better judgement, I'm taking the setup to use at a gig tomorrow - this will be with band through an excellent PA and a sound person at a desk some way back in the hall - a good test. Having played there previously, I've always had my amp miked up, and always it's a great sound for the whole band. So, baptism of fire, but I can't keep putting it off, and we'll see how it goes.
-
Well now, today is the day, and I for one am waiting patiently for the smash reviews to start circuiting.
-
curious what would make the helix more appealing than the ax8?
-
I am afraid that I can´t answer your question. I have only had experience with the Helix. Part of my answer lies in the fact that Thomann, large musicians store in Europe, does not carry the AX8. I have seen previously I believe that the Fractual is more expensive enough compared to the Helix that it would not be an alternative for me. I got mine which was a return for 10-12% on the list which is about 1100 euros. While you pose a legitimate question, I think the learning curve is so long, at least for me, that any parallel comparison presented would leave me a bit sceptical and would be based upon a store comparison which would lack a good comparative depth. It is a very nice bit of equipment, that is more than suited to my needs I suppose is my best answer.
-
In the UK, I would say the biggie is price: Helix LT under £700, AX8 somewhere considerably over £2000, and you'll probably have to get it imported from the US. So, not disregarding the capabilities of the AX8 at all - in many ways, it may have the edge, but a big price discrepancy. Obviously I haven't tried an AX8, but I do also get the impression that the Helix has a nicer interface (certainly seems to have a nicer screen anyhow) and perhaps wins overall in terms of being user-friendly.
Originally Posted by jzucker
-
Not just saying this - the Helix did absolutely great at it's inaugural gig! I was prepared to suffer a less than ideal sound in order to get things rolling - after all, there could have been things I had yet to discover, that would need tweaking and time/experience to get right. But in the event, everything seemed to work ridiculously well - I had my Alto TS210 behind me on the floor, in floor monitor wedge orientation, fed from the 1/4" output jack, and the sound desk chap used the XLR out. I set the volume control on the Helix to just work on the 1/4" output so I could easily/independently adjust volume from the Alto. Originally Posted by 0zoro
There was a little work getting things right at soundcheck - I originally had the XLR out set to line level, and (as I've heard can be the case) the sound man said it was a very strong signal, and he had to have the gain on the desk very low. So I switched it to mic level - he said this was still pretty strong, but I guess it was a bit better for him. Also strangely, he said things seemed to be easier by the second set, although I hadn't changed anything. But he coped perfectly well in the end anyhow, and the sound seemed superb to me.
Most of the gig was done with a clean patch, using the studio compressor, Fender Twin amp model and one of the Dr. Bonkers Polytone 1x12 speaker impulse responses - these IR's definitely give that Polytone colour/quality, which I'm very used to as a Polytone user. Also just the spring reverb model, and occasionally I used some Dimension chorus, Script mod phaser (MXR model), and subtle-ish delay (IIRC the transistor delay). For one solo (in This Masquerade) I switched to the Marco Fanton Litiga patch for a Carlton-esque overdrive kind of thing, as I had promised I would.
But the surprising, and pleasing thing really was how well it all worked, with no tweaking needed. I just did not notice the sound becoming harsher at the gig levels - all the sounds seemed at least as nice as they are at practice/bedroom level. Also, I'd heard that the Alto monitor (and other similar ones) could become very boomy and bass-heavy if used at gig level in monitor orientation on the floor - it was a worry, but again, this just didn't materialize.
This gig, in a fairly large hall venue, is about as big as I ever do, and I can't imagine wanting to go much louder in the future, so on this experience, the Helix is good to go, and I can carry on creating sounds and patches at bedroom level and feel fairly confident they will work at gigs. A singer friend, who I know would tell me if there was anything not good, was sitting near the back of the hall, and said the guitar sounded gorgeous. I have to say it sounded fabulous to me too, and the band seemed very happy. I guess I look into the level into the desk issue to see if there is a way of improving things there, but apart from that - yay!
-
that is just awesome. so glad you had a good experience with the Helix.
Would love to see a screen shot of your signal path on your clean sound.
(shhhh......and throw in the Dumble patch too, haha)
there is a way to control the levels out to the board too. I had the same problem too. it can be done in a variety of ways. I think I used a gain block. you might also want to check through your gain staging too to make sure you don't have an unusually hot output somewhere.
so tell me Meggy, is that Alto a stereo cab? whatg is it's power rating and what levels did you set on it?
-
I'll certainly do a screen shot of my clean patch Michael, although you might well find glaring areas for improvement (let me know if so!) - it did get me through the gig yesterday nicely though. I think it's true what you said earlier re how what works for one person may well not for another. Having said that, I must try your own clean patch that you posted.
Re the Litiga patch, obviously I can't post that one, but I do think for anyone into that kind of warm, not too OTT kind of Carlton/Dumble amp-type sustain lead tone, it's a good starting point, and probably worth the small cost. Or maybe not if you're good at dialing in your own patches to zero in on a certain kind of tone. There are things on it I won't use and will change, and of course it's going to need tweaking to suit, whoever uses it. Marco Fanton also had a "Larry Carlton" patch IIRC, using the same Dumble amp model, but which costs more - maybe I should try it too, but I can't see how it would be any better for my purposes. Perhaps that's an improved version though.
Re the gain staging - I guess one thing I could easily do is just turn down the master volume on the amp models a bit - to be honest I think that would probably do the trick. When I was trying patches straight into my Roland Cube amp (Helix output set to instrument level) I did notice that most are way above unity gain in terms of output, compared to the plain signal from the guitar.
The Alto TS210 is confusingly named - it's just a mono FRFR speaker cab with single 10" speaker and tweeter Alto Professional - TRUESONIC 2 Series > TS210 - I doubt any better than what you have - I got it based on price, and also jzuker on here let me know that he uses these, or has anyhow, and they work well for jazz, and better than some of the pricier options. It does seem excellent so far, and I may very well get a second for stereo. Power rating 550W continuous the specs say - I did see a few online reports of the tweeters failing, perhaps I should add, but I suspect these are users pushing the volume way more than I ever will.
-
Meggy, very happy to hear about the good results. Any tension must have turned into great relief, and propelled the guitarist to new heights. A question directed to you, Michael, and anyone else with experience, about FRFR speakers in comparison to the Helix sound produced through a combo. How great is the difference? I noticed Meggy that you used a Cube at first, and perhaps plugged the helix in through the Aux in on the back of the Cube in order to bypass the Cubes preamp. This would make for the greatest control of sound modelling with the Helix, but is there a slight, meddle or great difference in passing the same signals through a FRFR?
-
Ozoro, there's an Aux in on the back of my Cube amp you say?! - I such a non-tech person, I never even considered that, just went from Helix (of course set to instrument level output) into the normal guitar in jack on the Cube, using the clean channel on fairly neutral setting (i.e. bass/mid/treble/presence at noon-sih). Certainly I got good results like that just using effects, but then I tried the amp models and cab sims, and it didn't sound bad, but that made me realize that great things might be achieved with an FRFR speaker. So then I got one of those, then spent a month or so worrying about the difficulties of actually using an FRFR setup live at gig volume, fuelled by negative things, and setup issues I read about on guitar forums and Helix Facebook groups ...only to finally try it at a gig and surprise surprise, it all worked just fine with no issues at all.
The fact the amp models/cab sims/IRs worked so well the other day, and sounded so good, is yet another revelation to me - I feel I am still coming to terms with the capabilities of the Helix - nice when something exceeds expectations so much.
I'll have to try going into the Cube via the Aux in on the back and see what it's like - my suspicion is the guitar type speaker and lack of tweeter will still mean there's some colouring effect (i.e. not a flat response) but it's probably not at all bad. I'll have a go some time soon, compare with the Alto FRFR, and report back.
-
Meggy, in order to do so you will have to splice a 1/4" contact to a 3.5 mm. In other words a guitar contact out of the Helix using the Aux in on the Cube, where one can plug in a mp3 player, telephone etc. I took a 3.5 mm cable and soldered it to a 1/4" guitar jack, works great if you have a soldering iron. It does not matter if you use a mono or a stereo jack in to the cube as everything will be mono in the cube anyway, and it is easier to get a hold of stereo cables than mono as they are used for headphones etc.
-
I was going to post a clip of my basic clean set up, and I still will, with the caveat that it should be known that it is a representation of my patch and due to various factors, your speakers, headphones, sound card etc, it won't be an accurate representation but a facsimile.
I think in general there is no reason you can't get a great sound using the Helix in front of your amp. It may not be an accurate example of a particular model, but it can still be a great sound. I don't have a lot of experience with putting the Helix in front of an amp. I switched to modeling a couple of years ago and haven't used one since.
I also don't have an opinion on a preference of Helix over AX8. I simply did some research, talked to some folks, listened to examples and made a tough choice. I went as far as getting on the waiting list for the AX8. I was very torn. In the end, I chose the Helix and just stuck with it and I'm pretty happy I did.
So many things affect our "tone". It's very easy to chase that holy grail. To me, the single most important factor in tone is: Does it inspire you to play at your best or does it hold you back? If I'm happy with my tone, I play better. If my tone is appropriate for the song, I play better. If that tone is perceived by my group and my audience to be good, I play better. And if I play better, everyone is happy, lol.
To me the greatest difference between FRFR and amp is variety of tone more so than quality of tone. I'm happy with a great amp sound or the Helix modeling. But I'm particularly happy with the variety afforded with FRFR modeling.
-
Just had another rehearsal today - took Helix and Alto FRFR, sounded awesome - the present to myself that keeps on giving. I guess I'll be keeping the Polytone, and the Roland Cube, but the Helix/Alto setup is starting to look like my main thing now, crazy!
-
Hope the other Helix users on here are still getting results they like. Just a quick update - I got another Alto TS210 powered speaker, and have gone stereo, as it were. I've had to re-do my patches to take full advantage of this, and also took the opportunity to swap to some of the newer reverbs - although these are a bit towards the ambient/special effect kind of thing, on subtle settings, I find they can work nicely just as a regular reverb, while adding a certain something. For jazz playing, I'm still liking the Twin Reverb amp model going into one of the Dr Bonkers Polytone 1x12 speaker impulses - the IR does seem to give that chewy, fat Polytone thing, and also there's a great singing kind of quality. I like using my Ibanez AS103, which can be a bit bright with some setups, but it really works through the Helix.
I have to say I love the results from going stereo - I did a smaller venue gig a few days ago, and just used the twin TS210s, set a ear level about a 2 metres apart behind me, not going through the PA, and got very favourable comments on the sound - it is very lush and full. I don't think the full stereo effect would be heard by everyone in the audience, but I still think there is an advantage to spreading the sound from the twin speakers in terms of bigness of sound. The disadvantage is that you have to carry them in and out of the venue. I just had them stood on a couple of bar stools, but am soon to be buying some compact low PA stands to use. The not having an "amp in the room" issue just hasn't proved to be an issue at all for me - everything sounds excellent, and I just don't find anything lacking at all.
All this said, I still do gigs where I just plug my guitar straight into my Polytone amp.
-
Hej Meggy That was good to hear, I too am extremely happy with the results I have gotten from the rack, or the black box as it affectionately known as in the family. My experimentation phase has apparently passed, having settled into a tone I like my time goes to practising. One might find that unimaginative but highly necessary. Good playing to you!
-
Curious which specific IR files you’re using from that set. I find a lot of them are very roomy sounding and some have a distinct delay-type echo. Originally Posted by Meggy
Hope the other Helix users on here are still getting results they like. Just a quick update - I got another Alto TS210 powered speaker, and have gone stereo, as it were. I've had to re-do my patches to take full advantage of this, and also took the opportunity to swap to some of the newer reverbs - although these are a bit towards the ambient/special effect kind of thing, on subtle settings, I find they can work nicely just as a regular reverb, while adding a certain something. For jazz playing, I'm still liking the Twin Reverb amp model going into one of the Dr Bonkers Polytone 1x12 speaker impulses - the IR does seem to give that chewy, fat Polytone thing, and also there's a great singing kind of quality. I like using my Ibanez AS103, which can be a bit bright with some setups, but it really works through the Helix.
I have to say I love the results from going stereo - I did a smaller venue gig a few days ago, and just used the twin TS210s, set a ear level about a 2 metres apart behind me, not going through the PA, and got very favourable comments on the sound - it is very lush and full. I don't think the full stereo effect would be heard by everyone in the audience, but I still think there is an advantage to spreading the sound from the twin speakers in terms of bigness of sound. The disadvantage is that you have to carry them in and out of the venue. I just had them stood on a couple of bar stools, but am soon to be buying some compact low PA stands to use. The not having an "amp in the room" issue just hasn't proved to be an issue at all for me - everything sounds excellent, and I just don't find anything lacking at all.
All this said, I still do gigs where I just plug my guitar straight into my Polytone amp.
-
I'll have a look! can't remember at the moment, might be one of the three mic ones. Can't say I've noticed any echo, or the roomy sound - I just tend to adjust my reverb settings to taste, and it all seems fine to me. Will get back to you anyhow. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
-
Had a look - at the moment it's this one: Originally Posted by Meggy
DBS_POLY_1X12_WF_Neu89_Cone_500ms_MicDI
-
Thanks, I have found a few that I liked. I will give that one a try. Originally Posted by Meggy
-
Update 2.60 is out! And it includes two new clean channel amp models, perhaps not big news for the djent metal crowd, but this is big news for the jazz minority using the Helix, I'd say. Very keen to try the Mesa Lonestar clean channel model. Also some new distortion pedal models, including two for the venerable Boss DS-1 - a classic vintage version, and also a Keeley-modded version. Not to mention a new handy-sounding one button looper. They've improved the recently added HX reverbs too - they are apparently "wetter" sounding now - I already thought these were great, so I hope this isn't too much of a major change. Will wait until tomorrow to install anyhow - a bit too tired now.
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions