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For the second time I found a 335 (A recent CME pick) and a clone (T-486) with an imbalanced body where the body would literally fall off my leg if left without purposefully holding it down. None of my other genuine 335's or clones are imbalanced like this so I figure this to be a coincidence of wood selection.
So, I'm thinking about changing the steel tailpieces for aluminum types. I wonder whether the weight different will actually help and if the aluminum model could be a reliability issue?
Has anyone tried this?
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12-19-2017 09:03 AM
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Are you talking neck heavy? It's kinda hard to figure out what is going on from your description. Maybe they put an ovation back on by mistake?
Maple or mahogany neck?
David
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The body is heavy, heavier than my others, would using a LIGHTER TP correct a HEAVIER BODY that makes the neck RISE?
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I wouldn't think that the weight difference would do much to the balance but in terms of tone it's worth a try. I seem to remember that there are clamps for the headstock available that add a bit of weight up there - meant to add sustain but they also may put the guitar in a better balance...
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Ah. Thanks for clarifying that. My personal opinion, no. The tailpiece is too close to the fulcrum of weight and would not be an effective place to change mass. Yes, differences in wood choice have a profound effect on balance and feel of a guitar. An unusually dense piece of centre block wood and a relatively light piece of neck mahogany (mahogany has a very wide spectrum of density and trees of the same species can very a LOT in density). Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Hmmm, you can try, but I don't think it's going to make a LOT of difference. You'll likely feel a difference in string response more than balance, and in an area that actually involves string anchoring, you can surely expect the feel, the attack and the envelope/sustain to show some change. A lot of change in sound and feel for maybe a disproportional and marginal change in the balance you seek.
But that's an opinion based on my experience in building and modding instruments. I've never tried to re-balance an instrument to the degree you do. That's a BIG part of the way that particular instrument was built. It might be perfect for somebody the way it is. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
If you had access to the block while it was being built, for some chambering and wood reduction, then that story might be different...
Hope somebody can help you. Have you tried different tuning machines? Out there on the end of that long lever arm, this will have an effect. Vintage Kluson style plastic tulips are much lighter than metal schaller machines. Add mass there and you'll do much more than removing it at the other end.
When I was working with Al Carruth in his shop, he had a guitar with a very light neck. The balance was off and the resonance didn't give a whole lot of sustain. He drilled several channels into the headstock, filled them with molten lead and capped it with a wood veneer. It was like someone turned the dial up on the guitar's volume and the balance changed a lot. I wouldn't recommend that as a first course of action but it gives you an idea of how intricate the issue of balance and sound is when dealing with a resonance system.
Good luck
David
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Thx, David... On one git (the 335) I replaced the Grover "Kidney" buttons with Imperial buttons which are 3/4 of an ounce lighter than the originals and it got a bit worse, but not worse enough to remove the Imperials. I have carpal tunnel and larger buttons are easier to work with.
The T-486 has the ES-175 type plastic Kluson keystone type heads which I would replace if I didn't have to change the tuner screw holes. The closest I have seen to them is the Kluson Revolution model. Maybe the tuner swap and TP will help it out.
Neither git is unplayable, they're just not as comfortable to play sitting as my others. I have to use a strap to keep the neck from rising in my left hand.
As far as the sonic and attack differences, what changes have you noted in that area when changing TP's?
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Heavier brass and steel alloys will be more effective at imparting sustain, a clear definition and because the energy in a denser anchor is retained more completely, the sound through the vibrating string and pickup can sound louder and from attack to sustain it can have more complete frequency information; read as: it sounds more present. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Now on the other extreme, wood is not as efficient, but in absorbing the high frequencies, it gives a warmer "woody" sound. Ask people who have a strong preference between TOM and wood bridge and tailpieces. Not better, but different, or better for an individual.
On a semi hollow, I have always preferred the most dense metal, and I think I can feel a difference even between American metal and the hardware on Asian market fittings, the more dense metals giving me a stronger attack and sustain. Aluminum I would personally avoid for those reasons: IT's WAY down the spectrum compared with steel alloys. Also steel string against metal bridge pieces, I want hard and dense. Once a steel string begins to cut into a tailpiece, it puts your action off on those strings.
All this business, of feel, sound is VERY subjective and really it's your hands, ears and the music you play that determine the best choice, but as far as string hardware, change that for SOUND you're looking for. I think it's a bad idea to mess with that for WEIGHT.
My two cent opinion.
David
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Putting weight on the headstock can be effective, since it creates a long arm for the center of gravity. Perhaps heavier tuner buttons, or the Fat Finger for Fenders would help. Access Denied You could even add weight to that, in several ways.
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I have an extremely hi-tech solution for unbalanced instruments while seated: use a strap!
You're welcome.
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Once you make it up in your mind you can change holes (a good luthier or woodworker can fill them so you'd hardly even notice) and re-drill the post diameters to accept Shallers and Grovers (don't drill all the way up!), then your life might change. The sealed Shallers are heavy, and they're wonderfully smooth. Gotohs are nice too. Sperzels are a good option too, you can get them locking. These can really upgrade your guitar but they'll change the collector's status while maybe solving your problem. Consider it. It's a real option open to you. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
David
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For those who are reading comprehension impaired... I quote what I said... Originally Posted by LtKojak
I have an extremely hi-tech solution for unbalanced instruments while seated: use a strap!
You're welcome.
"Neither git is unplayable, they're just not as comfortable to play sitting as my others. I have to use a strap to keep the neck from rising in my left hand"
Reading comprehension lesson complete, you're welcome :-)
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I have never really given this much attention but wouldn't it be by design that semis are prone to that? I only play without a strap with the guitar on my lap when I sit on the sofa and I think the ''butt" then always rests on the sofa (and then it's not an issue of course).
I will try tonight with my ES-333 (Kluson tuners with plastic knobs) and my Sheraton II (Asian Grover-imitations or the like) to see how they behave without a strap sitting on a stool or desk chair.
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If you don't want to spend money on something you're not sure if it works - do you have a capo? Or two? Try those on the headstock and see if it works...
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I was actually going to suggest that you find the approximate weight difference between your Klusons and the Schallers, get a small bag of nuts and bolts and hang a baggie of weight from the peghead. There's nothing like a dry run to see if an idea really works. Originally Posted by TOMMO
David
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I think not. I have a number of semis (both single and double cut) that balance perfectly on my right leg. Regarding the T486 I have queried another owner and they report that the git does not fall to the lower bout side and my two other 335's do not either. So it seems as if it's uncommon at the least. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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I was making your point, man. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
What's wrong with you?
J/K
TBH, I read just the OP, not the rest of the thread. Mea culpa!
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You'd think, right? But wood differs hugely in weight and density and so does hardware, body design, and even top wood laminate choice to some extent. Add to that the fact that Ibanez, for example uses maple in many of their necks (like the AS 200 which is why Sco's guitar has such a different "bite" that his old vintage 335 didn't) and neck thicknesses, fingerboard material (ebony and rosewood, and the thicknesses each piece needs to be considered stable), all these things will make weight distribution problematic. It's an ongoing battle to get a neck that long to be stable, light and responsive. 335's alone have changed thicknesses over the years. The thinner profiles of Asian guitar necks have put thinner necks into the carvings of Gibsons and changing density of materials for centre blocks also varies. Originally Posted by Little Jay
There's a reason why it's ALWAYS a good idea to try out an instrument before you buy.
I worked QC on the Ibanez line and even for one particular model, the inherent "feel" and "magic" of instruments could be felt in different instruments. Some looked like beauty queens and played like cardboard mules, and others may have had plain jane figure but sang in ways I couldn't put down.
You're dealing with a lot of variables. Know your own needs. Know what any one instrument can do to fit that ideal.
David
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Nothing's wrong with me, your first comment was acidic and uncalled for. Simply saying you just read the OP is sufficient to diffuse it, asking "What's wrong" with me is also uncalled for. Originally Posted by LtKojak
I was making your point, man.
What's wrong with you?
J/K
TBH, I read just the OP, not the rest of the thread. Mea culpa!
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Well, just tried it out and both my ES-333 and my Sheraton stay horizontal on my leg if I don't touch them (not using the strap). But it's a delicate equilibrium, one little move and the neck comes up. But if you play them the weight of your hand on the neck is more then sufficient to keep the neck down without having the feeling you have to hold it down. Also the right arm on the body kind of fixates them.
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I think there are only 2 real options if you want to keep the guitar unmodified:
* Relieve weight at the tailpiece, and
* Add weight at the headstock
Your ideas of starting off with lighter tailpieces makes sense, though as previously mentioned the distance from the center of gravity is small relative to the distance for the headstock. You might try doing one or the other or both.
In the worst case scenario, where weight-relieving tailpieces and weight-enhancing tuners don't help, the only other easy option for re-balancing would be to add weight to the headstock. I've seen people add shaped metal plates to the back of the headstock for exactly this reason. If you have to go that route, I would experiment with different amounts of weight to see how much weight is needed, and consider attaching that much weight to the headstock as ballast, without drilling any new holes. This should be feasible by using a fabricated plate that attaches to the existing tuner screws using spacers. It would require some custom fabrication, but it's do-able, and you should be able to accomplish the task without modifying the guitar itself.
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Are you serious now? Both posts were clearly in jest, and FYI, J/K means JUST KIDDING. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Jeezzz... who pissed in your cornflakes, man...?
Here's five bucks, buy yourself a laugh. My treat!
In the case your snowflake mind goes bananas, I'M JOKING AGAIN!!!!
Is it sufficiently clear now? See...? There's even an emoticon!
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Hey....howz 'bout them Cleveland Indians?
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Like YOU said you commented and only read the OP. Originally Posted by LtKojak
Are you serious now? Both posts were clearly in jest, and FYI, J/K means JUST KIDDING.
Jeezzz... who pissed in your cornflakes, man...?
Here's five bucks, buy yourself a laugh. My treat!
In the case your snowflake mind goes bananas, I'M JOKING AGAIN!!!!
Is it sufficiently clear now? See...? There's even an emoticon!
Yes, I am and was serious, saying "who pissed in your cornflakes, DOH..." Is idiotic even in jest, and YES, I AM SAYING your comments ARE idiotic. AM I CLEAR??? Just maybe?
So, if you stop making comments veiled in jest nobody will give you a SERIOUS rebuttal.
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I have played ES-335 guitars made from the late-50s through recent vintages. IIRC, the balance of the guitars is a bit all over the map. More than anything else, I judge this to be a function of variation in the woods--and in particular the center blocs--that Gibson used.
From the late-50s through the late-60s, the 335 was overall a bit less heavy than it subsequently became. Pick up, say, a '64 and a '80 and you will notice that the later model is about 8 pounds whereas the early model is about 7. _Most_ of that weight difference is going to be in the body. So, you are going to notice, all else equal, more of a tendency for the '80 335 to have a rising neck when you play it. (Doesn't bother me because I often play in the classical position.)
FWIW, although my Polytone Improv II semi-acoustic is a bit heavier than my last ES-335, I notice that it plays quite level when I am seated. If I _want_ to adopt a classical position, I have to horse the guitar up. The Improv is very neutral. This is surprising, given that the Improv has a full, mahogany center bloc. My last 335 had, IIRC, a spruce bloc that only went as far as the bridge/tailpiece area.
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Gnappi, get yourself a colonoscopy. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
My treat!
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