4-to-bar in a swing band - Do I need a microphone?

[radiofm74]

Hello everyone,

I need to cover the “swing guitar” spot in my arsenal and I am looking for pointers concerning what guitar to get. My ideal would be: acoustic tone while playing rhythm, then turn the volume up and have a nice electric sound. “What pickup” will be a subject for another thread. Here I am mostly interested in the rhythm part.

Primary application would be at jams in a fairly small club (80-90 persons, with a bar). Band typically comprises drums, double bass, piano, horns. The horns play to the mic, and I’ve never seen an un-amplified guitar play in that setting so far. Repertoire is trad jazz to swing era jazz.

The first question is: do you think that playing rhythm acoustically would be an option at all? If so, I might consider getting e.g. a carved top Loar or an Eastman, set it up with big strings and high action, and slap a floating pickup on it.

If I have to mic’ it, I’ll probably add a lavalier goose-neck mic to my set-up.

Which leads to the second question: if I have to mic’ up anyway, why bother with buying an archtop that is built and set-up to be loud acoustically? Wouldn’t e.g. a lam-top with a frendlier set-up give me approximately the same comping sound at the same volume? If so, a lot of (cheaper) options would become available to suit my needs… perhaps even one of those nice little thinlines with no cut and a P90.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

[marcwhy]

Swing/big bands are a lot of fun!

If you have a "favorite," then go for it.

Realistically, though, you can play any guitar on any gig and still make it sound good (search the many "Can I play ___ guitar on ___ gig?" threads here)! If these are "jams," then you're likely not getting paid, so why spend extra money to "fit in" with a nearly 100 year old vibe (unless you want to and have the money for a new guitar!)? I bet whatever you have now would work.

I gigged in a swing band for almost 10 years, and used whatever was my main guitar at the time, including a 335-style; not once did anyone approach me at a gig and say, "Wow, too bad you don't have a big, acoustic archtop with heavy strings and high action! You ruined the show!"

Have fun playing!

[radiofm74]

Swing/big bands are a lot of fun!

If you have a "favorite," then go for it.

Realistically, though, you can play any guitar on any gig and still make it sound good (search the many "Can I play ___ guitar on ___ gig?" threads here)! If these are "jams," then you're likely not getting paid, so why spend extra money to "fit in" with a nearly 100 year old vibe (unless you want to and have the money for a new guitar!)? I bet whatever you have now would work.

I gigged in a swing band for almost 10 years, and used whatever was my main guitar at the time, including a 335-style; not once did anyone approach me at a gig and say, "Wow, too bad you don't have a big, acoustic archtop with heavy strings and high action! You ruined the show!"

Have fun playing!

Hi! Thanks! I totally get the “don’t obsess about gear” message. I’ve been playing at those gigs with my trusty tele, go figure!

Point is: I can make a small investment, including by selling some of what I have, and I am really after two sounds for my archtop:
- the acoustic 4-to-bar, and
- that lovely single coil jazz tone of pre-bop to early bop guitarists.

My Broadway, which is a fine guitar and far surpasses my initial expectations, cannot give me an audible acoustic sound … or could it, through a clip-on mic? That’s really part of the question here.

(It can also give me a decent electric sound, but not that electric sound… that’s for another thread down the road however).

[hotpepper01]

I play in a bigband as well. A good acoustic rythm sound is easy, a good solo tone is also easy. The combination makes it difficult. Jonathan Stout is the expert how to combine those two in one setup. Horns are loud, very loud. At least in the band that I play in.
I use most a Gibson L5 CT (thinline) or a Gretsch 6119 Tennesean (treble bleed).
I tried acoustic archtops, but found that not to work easy. Laminated is less prone to feedback, positioning your amp at the neck side of your guitar helps also a lot. Positioning your amp behind the body of your guitar is asking for trouble.

[mr. beaumont]

Something I'll throw out there--

It's not a traditional choice, I don't think, but I highly recommend a volume pedal...

I did some gigs doing some oldy Western Swing stuff, and the volume pedal was a life-saver for moving quickly between lead and rhythm duties.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Something I'll throw out there--

It's not a traditional choice, I don't think, but I highly recommend a volume pedal...

I did some gigs doing some oldy Western Swing stuff, and the volume pedal was a life-saver for moving quickly between lead and rhythm duties.

I’ll second this! A volume pedal is where it’s at. I’d hate to gig without one.

[radiofm74]

Thanks everyone for the input! The volume pedal suggestion is duly noted!

However my question is how to make the acoustic sound of my archtop heard (for rhythm) in the context described:
- would a loud, carved top archtop be audible without any amplification?
- would a clip-on mic be needed (e.g. the rig described by Jonathan Stout in his extremely useful posts)?
- if I have to put a clip on, would a carved top archtop still be a plus or would a cheaper archtop, less prone to feedback (including my Epi Broadway) do?

Lead sound, and how to switch between the two, is for another thread. But thanks again for chiming in, and if you have more suggestions, I’m all ears!

[mr. beaumont]

If you're playing a strictly acoustic archtop, you need a pretty loud one, and it's still going to be

A. More for the band than audience
B. More "felt" than heard

Thats okay, but not ideal in a modern application. Plus, the setup required for a good acoustic tone makes single note electric style playing almost impossible.

Better to play a guitar that has a good electric tone, and turn down for the rhythm. If some of the acoustic sound of the guitar comes through--great.

I've also used the bridge pickup for a brighter tone when playing rhythm (and still turned down)

But the swiss army guitar doesn't really exist...you have to pick your compromise, really.

Stout's a braver (and better) player than I, using microphones...I generally plan for the sound man to have NO experience dealing with a jazz rhythm guitar sound...or for there to be no sound man at all...so it's up to me to regulate things.

[radiofm74]

If you're playing a strictly acoustic archtop, you need a pretty loud one, and it's still going to be

A. More for the band than audience
B. More "felt" than heard

Thats okay, but not ideal in a modern application. Plus, the setup required for a good acoustic tone makes single note electric style playing almost impossible.

Better to play a guitar that has a good electric tone, and turn down for the rhythm. If some of the acoustic sound of the guitar comes through--great.

I've also used the bridge pickup for a brighter tone when playing rhythm (and still turned down)

But the swiss army guitar doesn't really exist...you have to pick your compromise, really.

Stout's a braver (and better) player than I, using microphones...I generally plan for the sound man to have NO experience dealing with a jazz rhythm guitar sound...or for there to be no sound man at all...so it's up to me to regulate things.

Thanks a lot Jeff. Your advice is duly noted, and you sort of answered my first question – I sure would want to have a guitar that’s still playable for solos.

If anybody tried to combine a mic to a magnetic pickup, I’d be interested to know about the experience. I ask this because even just using a crap USB microphone at home to record backing tracks with my Epiphone, the sound I got was worlds better than the rhythm sound I can get using the pickups, no matter how low the volume, and no matter how carefully I pitch my strum.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks a lot Jeff. Your advice is duly noted, and you sort of answered my first question – I sure would want to have a guitar that’s still playable for solos.

If anybody tried to combine a mic to a magnetic pickup, I’d be interested to know about the experience. I ask this because even just using a crap USB microphone at home to record backing tracks with my Epiphone, the sound I got was worlds better than the rhythm sound I can get using the pickups, no matter how low the volume, and no matter how carefully I pitch my strum.

What will the exact playing situation be?

[radiofm74]

I’ll be on stage with a Hot Rod Deluxe amp and access to a PA system if required. If I can’t cut it acoustically, I would send the mic to PA and the pickup to amp, and figure out some kind of a switching system.

The room is not very big. It can seat about 80 persons and there’s a bar behind. The drummers who step up to play can get loud. Then there’s piano, double bass, and 2-3 horns (mic’d). The repertoire is trad jazz and swing.

That’s what I’d set up for. Of course, the rig I put together might then be employed in other situations, but I don’t expect anything bigger.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm sorry, I should be more specific...I mean, are you at the whim of a soundman? Or does someone in the band do sound? Or are you on your own to regulate volume/etc.?

[radiofm74]

I am the master of my own destiny. Of course, if I screw up someone might jump on the control board while I’m playing and bring down my volume, or cut my cord to the amp

The other thing to consider is that once the jam is on and you’r called onstage, there is not a lot of time to set up. Plug in, sit down, play. Still, I might have a chance to make preparations of the cables and volume levels beforehand.

[Greentone]

For swing bands a tuned drum is what you are going for. A loud Epiphone or Gretsch is to be preferred to a sweet sounding Gibson, D'Angelico, etc.

I found that Freddie Green's recipe--i.e., a 50s Gretsch with high action--pounded out the chords with authority. Also, as called for the guitar had surprisingly great and penetrating solo notes on the top three strings from the 3rd to the 12th frets. The guitar was quite a tommy gun.

I never put a pickup on this guitar, but I suspect that it had a DeArmond Guitar Mic on a stick before I got it. That probably would have worked okay.

FWIW, Herb Ellis could do the swing thing very convincingly on his '53 ES-175.

[omphalopsychos]

I know from Jonathan Stout's Instagram that he's done some gigs with an L5 with a DeArmond FHC and a Lavalier mic to gover both rhythm and lead roles. Seems like the winning combination.

[deacon Mark]

Non cutaway Super 400 from the 40's or 50's will get you the volume most of the time. The other option is maybe a non cut L5 from around the same time frame, the worst it looks is probably an indication it is a great sounding guitar. I am not an Epiphone fan as much they can be loud but my ears do not always like them not refined in sound.

You could also go the L7 route for the best bang for the buck. In my opinion the Gibson L7 is the most underrated archtop around. They can be had in a cutaway for less than 5k and sometimes much less. A non cut can go 3K. Set up correct they are a very difficult guitar to beat and they say GIBSON on the inlay. Down the road that is going to be the keeper that will not stop. Lots of Eastmans and various makers but in the end GIBSON is going to win for the long haul.

[radiofm74]

Thanks a lot at Mark and Greentone. It is however unlikely that a 40s-50s guitar may fit my budget (I might get lucky with an old Epiphone, and that would be fantastic). My target are guitars that can be had new or used at or below the 1000€ mark. For an old Epi, I might stretch the budget, but the most likely candidates are Asian Loar, Eastman, Peerless, D’Angelico, Guild, Gretsch G9555 and suchlike.

(Or, if I abandon the “solid top” route, that may include “player-grade” 125s and similar).

[docsteve]

I read €€€ (as opposed to $). Have you ever thought of an old German archtop? I did well with my Höfner in a swing context, both acoustically and amplified with a Fishman bridge, but then we had no drums and no horns.


Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk

[rabbit]

I can't sort this thread out, 'prolly too much wine.

Here's my contribution:

IK Multimedia | iRig Acoustic Stage - Advanced digital microphone system for acoustic guitar

I haven't tried one but it is interesting. You can plug into & blend the 'Acoustic Stage'
microphone with a mag or piezo pickup. There's a process for programming it to
your particular guitar. It is cheap. It has a throat of .140" (I asked.)

Also note: if you check out Ranger Doug with the Time Jumpers on youtiube (it'll take a while) you'll
see he amps his acoustic archtops whether he's out front singing or sitting in the back using a mic on a stand.
He avoids all lead work though. They've got a sound man, too.

[campusfive]

Hello everyone,

I need to cover the “swing guitar” spot in my arsenal and I am looking for pointers concerning what guitar to get. My ideal would be: acoustic tone while playing rhythm, then turn the volume up and have a nice electric sound. “What pickup” will be a subject for another thread. Here I am mostly interested in the rhythm part.

Primary application would be at jams in a fairly small club (80-90 persons, with a bar). Band typically comprises drums, double bass, piano, horns. The horns play to the mic, and I’ve never seen an un-amplified guitar play in that setting so far. Repertoire is trad jazz to swing era jazz.

The first question is: do you think that playing rhythm acoustically would be an option at all? If so, I might consider getting e.g. a carved top Loar or an Eastman, set it up with big strings and high action, and slap a floating pickup on it.

If I have to mic’ it, I’ll probably add a lavalier goose-neck mic to my set-up.

Which leads to the second question: if I have to mic’ up anyway, why bother with buying an archtop that is built and set-up to be loud acoustically? Wouldn’t e.g. a lam-top with a frendlier set-up give me approximately the same comping sound at the same volume? If so, a lot of (cheaper) options would become available to suit my needs… perhaps even one of those nice little thinlines with no cut and a P90.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

So, the important of the equation so far not mentioned is "timbre". An acoustic archtop (meaning a real, carved top guitar) has a very specific timbre that makes it ideal for the job of swing rhythm guitar. You can't get that timbre from a lam-top guitar played acoustically, ever. It's really hard to get from an electric guitar, and the sensitivity required to make it work (not to mention the right guitar, pickup and amp) is more work than the type of mic'ing rig I used with my acoustic archtop. Besides the tone, the enhanced sustain from magnetic pickups just f's up the time-feel. The natural decay of an acoustic archtop is an important part of the proper timbre.

The second thing is that somebody "needs a mic" only because the rest of the band isn't playing fair - I doubt your drummer is using a 30's-40's kit with calf heads and super thin 30's-40's cymbals, and I doubt your bass player is using gut strings with high action. So, you have to give in an amplify it somewhat to level the field - however, the key is to do it without fundamentally changing the acoustic timbre of the guitar.

To your point about having to have a set up that makes lead work impossible - there is a sweet spot where you can still get significant acoustic volume without being hard to play. It might get louder with even higher action, but it becomes a matter of diminishing returns if you can't play the thing. I couldn't play with Freddie Green style action and do the kind of chord-melody playing I do, but I have 12's on 1932 L-5 (though I swap in a 14 and 18 on top) with action that is only as high as it needs to be to keep me from hearing the strings slap against the neck when I whomp it.

Also, one of the virtues of the kind of mic'ing setup I use, is that it doesn't require the guitar be a cannon - just that it have a legitimate acoustic voice. A Loar or Eastman will certainly suffice, and I know of no other current production, factory-made guitars that I can say that of.

I prefer to keep my acoustic and electric rigs completely separate, and switch guitars, even mid-song, to preserve that - I hate electric rhythm guitar THAT much. However, I have had amazing results with adding a DeArmond Guitar Mic (floating pickup) to my 1932 L-5. I use the electric pickup into a tube amp, and the lavalier mic into an acoustic amp - and so long as I mute the acoustic when I roll the volume knob up for an electric solo, I have two discrete sounds available with basically no compromise. Here's a clip of me playing that rig - electric solo is the second half of the second chorus, but I'm playing acoustic rhythm the rest of the tune:

Last thing I'll add - my L-5 has a great acoustic voice, but it's not what I'd call a "cannon". And I just picked up a 1939 L-5 that IS a "cannon". It definitely adds, even when mic'd, because it's not about sheer volume, it's about the specific frequencies that cut through. However, even though my new 1939 is better, the 1932 was still a wonderful rhythm guitar. And I've borrowed any number of Loar LH-600 and 700's that have done great. As long as the guitar has a legitimate acoustic voice, you're fine even if it's not a Stromberg, at least with the mic'ing rig I use.

[johnnyjazz]

Did it for years, my advice, tune to 442, something a horn player told me, they all do, to try and stand out in front.

[radiofm74]

I read €€€ (as opposed to $). Have you ever thought of an old German archtop? I did well with my Höfner in a swing context, both acoustically and amplified with a Fishman bridge, but then we had no drums and no horns.


Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk

Thanks a lot for reminding me. There are quite a bit more of these on the used market around where I live. My problem has always been that it’s a bit harder to tell good ones from less good ones… specs seem to be a bit mixed up. But a bit of research and some field-testing should go a long way.

[radiofm74]

I can't sort this thread out, 'prolly too much wine.

Here's my contribution:

IK Multimedia | iRig Acoustic Stage - Advanced digital microphone system for acoustic guitar

I haven't tried one but it is interesting. You can plug into & blend the 'Acoustic Stage'
microphone with a mag or piezo pickup. There's a process for programming it to
your particular guitar. It is cheap. It has a throat of .140" (I asked.)

Also note: if you check out Ranger Doug with the Time Jumpers on youtiube (it'll take a while) you'll
see he amps his acoustic archtops whether he's out front singing or sitting in the back using a mic on a stand.
He avoids all lead work though. They've got a sound man, too.

Possibly

Thanks for the suggestion though. I’ll try it out!

[radiofm74]

Did it for years, my advice, tune to 442, something a horn player told me, they all do, to try and stand out in front.

I’ll try that!

[radiofm74]

So, the important of the equation so far not mentioned is "timbre". An acoustic archtop (meaning a real, carved top guitar) has a very specific timbre that makes it ideal for the job of swing rhythm guitar. You can't get that timbre from a lam-top guitar played acoustically, ever. It's really hard to get from an electric guitar, and the sensitivity required to make it work (not to mention the right guitar, pickup and amp) is more work than the type of mic'ing rig I used with my acoustic archtop. Besides the tone, the enhanced sustain from magnetic pickups just f's up the time-feel. The natural decay of an acoustic archtop is an important part of the proper timbre.

The second thing is that somebody "needs a mic" only because the rest of the band isn't playing fair - I doubt your drummer is using a 30's-40's kit with calf heads and super thin 30's-40's cymbals, and I doubt your bass player is using gut strings with high action. So, you have to give in an amplify it somewhat to level the field - however, the key is to do it without fundamentally changing the acoustic timbre of the guitar.

To your point about having to have a set up that makes lead work impossible - there is a sweet spot where you can still get significant acoustic volume without being hard to play. It might get louder with even higher action, but it becomes a matter of diminishing returns if you can't play the thing. I couldn't play with Freddie Green style action and do the kind of chord-melody playing I do, but I have 12's on 1932 L-5 (though I swap in a 14 and 18 on top) with action that is only as high as it needs to be to keep me from hearing the strings slap against the neck when I whomp it.

Also, one of the virtues of the kind of mic'ing setup I use, is that it doesn't require the guitar be a cannon - just that it have a legitimate acoustic voice. A Loar or Eastman will certainly suffice, and I know of no other current production, factory-made guitars that I can say that of.

I prefer to keep my acoustic and electric rigs completely separate, and switch guitars, even mid-song, to preserve that - I hate electric rhythm guitar THAT much. However, I have had amazing results with adding a DeArmond Guitar Mic (floating pickup) to my 1932 L-5. I use the electric pickup into a tube amp, and the lavalier mic into an acoustic amp - and so long as I mute the acoustic when I roll the volume knob up for an electric solo, I have two discrete sounds available with basically no compromise. Here's a clip of me playing that rig - electric solo is the second half of the second chorus, but I'm playing acoustic rhythm the rest of the tune:

Last thing I'll add - my L-5 has a great acoustic voice, but it's not what I'd call a "cannon". And I just picked up a 1939 L-5 that IS a "cannon". It definitely adds, even when mic'd, because it's not about sheer volume, it's about the specific frequencies that cut through. However, even though my new 1939 is better, the 1932 was still a wonderful rhythm guitar. And I've borrowed any number of Loar LH-600 and 700's that have done great. As long as the guitar has a legitimate acoustic voice, you're fine even if it's not a Stromberg, at least with the mic'ing rig I use.

Hi Jonathan,

thank you so much for chiming in. You – and the other kind contributors – have provided me basically with all the information I need. I guess I’ll start by getting a clip-on mic and start experimenting with what I have, while actively looking for a fairly priced acoustic archtop and a DeArmond pickup.

Loar, Eastman and old solid-top Schlaggitarre will be top of my list. Old Epis would be the best, if a nice one appears (I’ll go check again that 46 Zenith they have in a store not too far from here). Around here there is also a used Guild A-150 Savoy (Asian) which I’ll certainy go and try. If I like the neck and the sounds, and manage to trade in my Epiphone, it might constitute a great “intermediary step up” (or even – for my hobbyist needs – the thing for quite a long time).

All the best, and thanks again!

PS: the video is fab, and apart from the lovely playing, those are exactly the kind of tones I’m going for. When time comes to buy a suspended pickup, I’ll again mine the collective knowledge of this wonderful forum!