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In my cat-deleted post, I compared speakers with microphones. If you read the specs, every large condensor mic would sound the same, and a lot of people seem to believe that.
Some time spent recording (especially vocals) reveals that to not be the case. I have a relatively inexpensive AT4033 that a couple of my lady singers swear by, not because it has flat response, but because its colored response includes a velvety top end that makes the ladies sound the way...well, the way they want to sound. I have another, more expensive, mic, that has "better" fidelity that stays in its box -- the crisp top end is too harsh for them, and consequently, they don't like the recordings of their voices made with it.
This is highly subjective stuff (I remember one of them counseling another singer in my studio -- I catered to semi-pros and songwriters -- with the words, "You have to LOVE your voice" or, at least, the recorded representation of it).
NOTHING HAS FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
And, in fact, if your guitar/amp/speaker did, you'd wonder what the hell was wrong with it. Music is about soul, and sass, and personality, and the really talented engineers (for example, Leo Fender, who was an "engineer" only by courtesy) ignore specs and go for sounds.
You pick out an acoustic guitar not by its flat response to the input of the strings, but by the pleasing colors resulting from the combination of nonlinearities resulting from the guitar's construction, materials, and your own technique. Randy might manage to quantify some of this, but it's one thing to measure what already exists as a pleasing sound and another to predict what you will get when you mash parts together.
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Good stuff, John. I used a pair of SM-57's when I was measuring that little Champ's response (other than a pair of PE-585's, they're my only microphones).
Assuming no room contributions (LOL) what is an inexpensive, flat microphone to use for measurement purposes ? Condenser types seem to be the low-cost leaders with flat response, is this true ?
Thanks
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I have a (=blush=) Behringer Ultra-Curve RTA, with B.'s omni measurement mic. Omnis, by their nature, are flatter than cardioids (but you'd NEVER record with one!), so they're not always expensive. More importantly, I spent several years deciphering my room, and also I found some formulae for computing resonant peaks, standing waves etc that probably contributed more than anything else to my understanding of what was happening when I recorded. And don't forget, always playing back those "perfect" mixes on your living room stereo, boom boxes, in the car and so on); that will humble your pride like nothing else!
Note that it's how it sounds, what personality it expresses, not how well it replicates some ideal sound.
And the hell of it is, a pair of SM57s will tell you as much, if you have ears on the side of your head.
Flat response is a moving target. Would you rather your recordings had flat response, or would you rather they made people go "WHOA!". Guitar amps are exactly the same.
Thank you for the kind words. Now I gotta go answer the door: a buddy came by to try out my new American Vintage '57 P and I can't wait to hear him play it.
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A brief websearch turned up this claim:
"The lowest price true calibrated microphone available is the $249 IBF-EMM8 Electret Measurement microphone sold by ETF Acoustics. The price includes their IBF-MP21 microphone preamplifier and a cal file referenced to a B&K 4133."
The B & K device referred to is apparently an industry standard "measurement quality" microphone. I really enjoy the challenge of making difficult electronic measurements but I don't feel any magnetism between any of these devices and my credit card.
I had another measurement concept in mind (for speaker characterization) however the technique would require TWO speakers. Not too practical for most of us ...
This is an interesting topic, as well as a potentially useful one. I hope that others will contribute to it so that we all can learn.
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The limitation of calibrated mics is that it's a challenge to build or adapt a space to use them in. when I turn on my RTA, it displays a decidedly non-linear response to just the ambient noise -- put someone singing loudly, or an electric guitar in there, and you're exciting nodes that you don't see on the display otherwise. Speaker manufacturers (at least, the larger ones) build expensive anechoic rooms. For the rest of us, treating a room to make it reasonably neutral is enough. Having no pretense to being an engineer, I use the indirect methods described above.
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Another random guitar speaker question: AlNiCo versus ceramic. Do AlNiCos deliver more that mojo?
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Whatever sounds good. The Weber I ordered is ceramic -- I relied on their descriptions of the relative sounds before I decided.
I don't trust generalizations. Most people have little understanding (and this includes me) about how to get great sound, and the natural result is a lot of oral tradition and outright misconceptions. "Only tube amps sound good." Which is true, except that my solid state Jazzmaster Ultralight sounds better than many tube monsters...and I'm sure that there are others out there too (bass amps are different, because bass players don't want or need the harmonics and distortion that guitarists insist on -- I say that because I have owned a couple of excellent solid state bass amps).
Ever notice how many amp manufacturers offer greenback Celestions? It's due to the fact that "greenback Celestions" is one of those buzz terms that everyone knows (sort of like the 15-year-olds of my generation "knew" about all the different four-barrel carburetors and could spout lots of half-digested stuff proving the one in their older brother's car was better than the one in someone else's). If an amp maker doesn't offer "greenback Celestions" as at least an option, he's cruising for a sales bruising.
The fact is that none of us has the budget or time, or the expertise to compare a great many similar amps and arrive at a conclusion. So we devise strategies. Me, I buy Gibson electric guitars, Fender Precision basses and Fender guitar amps. At this point in my life, I know the sound I like, and those products provide that sound. But I didn't get here without first owning close to 30 non-Gibson electrics, basses that were neither Fenders nor Precisions, and amps that were decidedly not Fenders.
So I don't know. Weber has a lot of information on their web site, but, I don't design speakers: I buy them. I have to trust their ears and reputation that the speaker I'm getting will be as described -- with the necessary qualification that verbal descriptions are slippery (take the term "warm" for example: I've heard it used over and over, but I don't think I really experienced it until I plugged my '51 Precision reissue into a friend's early '70s B15N -- that night I remember thinking in astonishment, man! that sounds warm!).
Enough nattering. This is an interesting discussion, and thank you Randy for contributing actual knowledge to it.
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Update: I ordered a Weber California Ceramic 15 on September 18, and it is now scheduled for delivery Saturday. I also ordered their large open-back cabinet, and I hope they will arrive together. Once I put it all together, I'll report back -- this post is to get the thread closer to the front of the queue so I won't have to search quite as far next time.
This is destined to be mated to a new Fender Band-Master VM head -- hybrid tube/solid state with digital effects. I've been playing my 335 through it, using a Hartke 115 TP cabinet. I liked the sound, but I want to try it with a proper guitar cabinet.
Back soon.
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I remember going to hear Jimmy Raney numerous times in New York and New Jersey. He always used an amp with a 15 inch speaker. Anybody remember what amp it was? It sounded great. He talked about his preference for the 15. Can't remember his reasoning.
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Originally Posted by
kawa
I like 2×10" very mutch.
Me too. Nothing works better for me. 
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Another 1x15" combo: the 35lb Quilter Steelaire: http://www.quilterlabs.com/misc/choosingaquilter.pdf (scroll down several pages!)
This document says it would come out in late 2013. Sounds interesting, those steel guitar amps tend to be clean machines. It has a 4-knob EQ (lo-mid and hi-mid) which is cool, and tremolo as well as reverb. 35lbs is decent for a 15" combo (the Evans SE200 is 38lbs). Looks like an Aviator.
Patrick says $1299 in the video.
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On 15" speakers:
It's mostly a taste thing. And 1x15 combos/cabs are definitely to my taste. I've had many, and tried any number of 15" speakers. Currently enjoying a WGS G15C in a Jenkins cab with an Allen Encore head. What hooks me is the feel, which is hard to describe. Less accurate somehow and slower than multiple 10" speakers for example, maybe doesn't cut through the mix as well, but fits what I play and how I hear things. Not bigger bass as much as a different mid and high end than you get with other formats. BTW, that Weber Cali ceramic is a great speaker, another longtime favorite.
On alnico vs. ceramic:
As with the 15" speaker thing, I find it very hard to generalize about this. It's all about taste, and very much dependent on detail ... which speakers, how many watts, what amp/guitar are you using, how loud are you playing, what are you playing? Ceramic tend to be more efficient, less breakup and compression at higher volumes than alnico. But the WGS Blackhawk 50 watt alnico I had in a Gibson GA40 was extremely efficient (loud), not prone to breakup. Whereas vintage Jensen C12PS ceramics (love these speakers) are sort of in the greenback vein ... crunchy, earlier breakup, not hugely loud. One generality that seems to hold up for me is compression. Not sure what it is technically, but that's what I hear more of in the "edge-of-breakup" sound from alnico speakers being driven hard, vs. equivalent ceramics.
MD
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I've posted this before, but this is the Weber California Ceramic I had on order (in 2009!) now hooked up with a Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue head and a Carvin SH550 with Seymour Duncan Antiquity II Jazzmaster pickups. This is one of the best combinations of instrument, head and speaker I have ever found. Sweet highs, with a bite when the material calls for it, a round but not boomy bottom and a clear midrange. It responds quickly to changes in pick attack, and is never harsh. Alas, it stays in my music room because it's a bit more cumbersome to move for this 71-year-old; on gigs my Fender Jazzmaster Ultralight gets the nod.
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