Chasing the elusive Jazz Guitar tone, Strings and picks!

**Bluegrass Bill Ward** · 10-07-2017, 12:36 PM

Hi Folks, I am enjoying my new (used) Heritage Johnnie Smith very much but still not totally satisfied that my tone is as good as it can get. My first set of strings I changed to are the TI Jazz swing flatwound strings with a .12 high E. I like the sound in general but feel that maybe the high E is a little too thin? It seems it needs a warmer full tone from that string.

I have seen on Youtube and read elsewhere where going up in gage on the high E and in some cases the B is recommended. For example, going to .13 or .14 on the E and .16 on the B string. How many have done this and found it made a significant improvement in how you liked the sound with that change? Also I know picks are very important, have some of you found a certain pick makes all the difference in the world and if so what is that pick So I can try it?

Any other success stories what made big improvements in your sound, especially for a large body Electric arch top Guitar like mine, the Heritage Johnnie Smith, or any other similar Heritage or Gibson large body Electric Arch top would be really appreciated.

FYI, I am playing it both acoustically and with a Fishman Loudbox mini.

Thanks for your help!

Bill

**SierraTango** · 10-07-2017, 01:03 PM

You will be swamped with replies on this post I'm sure. However my take is this: IIRC you recently obtained this outstanding instrument and bravo for that! I personally find the 12 TI's a bit thin on my Benedetto and use the 13's. There are all manner of posts on the forum about the TI's having lower tension and the 13's feeling more like a conventional 12 set from other manufactures.

Also, I have found that certain brands of strings fit and work better on individual guitars and it's trial and error to find the perfect match. My Pisano 880 flat out plays and sounds better with DA Chromes 12's. Fortunately strings are inexpensive, so try some different options.

Picks can't say much I've used the same Fender Extra Heavy teardrops since dirt was new.

I would only question your amp choice. No slam on Fishman, they are a fine amp, however you may want to consider trying out a few dedicated jazz guitar amps. I personally gig with a Evans JE-200 and it is a fabulous sounding amp to me. Lots of options though in that department..

**Stringswinger** · 10-07-2017, 01:44 PM

Bill, ST gave great advice.

Try heavier E and B string first. Experiment with strings a bit.

Consider a "jazz" amp. I use an Acoustic Image Clarus head with a Raezer's Edge cabinet. Frankly, my rig can get a great, warm jazz tone out of a Fender Strat.

I use 1.5 mm Dunlop Delrin picks. Dunlop Jazz picks and Fender heavys work very well too. I have tried some of the boutique picks and was underwhelmed, especially given the price.

Having played your guitar, I would seriously consider a pickup swap. If that guitar was mine, that is what I would do. A handwound Armstrong Johnny Smith PUP would be my choice. I think the PUP swap alone will probably get you to the promised land of jazz tone.

Good luck in your quest!

**omphalopsychos** · 10-07-2017, 01:55 PM

Thick picks made of smooth material with a rounded edge. D'Andrea Pro Plec 330s are my faves. The THomastik trebles are thin sounding no matter the gauge because of the brass coating. I usually toss out the Thomastik trebles and use plain steel. Pick over neck pickup. Push the strings, don't pluck them.

All these things are cheaper than getting a new amp. But a dedicated amp won't hurt.

**coolvinny** · 10-07-2017, 02:19 PM

I run a D'Addario roundwound 12-52's on my carved top but I replace the B and E with 17 and 14 respectively. 25" scale.

I run TI Bebop roundwound 13's on my laminate but I replace the E with a 14. 24.9" scale.

In all cases, I use a very heavy pick with rounded corners (Blue Chip KS60 unbeveled) which is why I like those heavier treble strings.

**wzpgsr** · 10-07-2017, 02:19 PM

One thing I’ve noticed is that the acoustic sound of the high E string can give the illusion that the amplified sound is brighter than it is. I’ve been surprised on recordings to hear that the sound is more balanced than it sounded in the room.

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-07-2017, 02:51 PM

I'm always looking for ways to make the high E sound thicker. Here are my thoughts.

1. Some players manage to get a very thick sound out of a thin string. Jim Hall comes to mind. I don't know how they do it, but I am convinced that there are ways to get there without playing a thick E string.

2. I use a Golden Gate Mandolin Pick. They get a nice soft sound.

3. In some situations the E string sound can be surprisingly sensitive to EQ. On my Strat-type (HB in neck position), even a small rotation of the tone knob goes from dark to excessive sizzly/treble.

4. Picking too hard can choke a fretted note and make it sound plinky. That's hard to fix, in my experience. You have to change the way you feel the instrument and find ways to sound excited without picking harder. I can't do it, so I sometimes add some signal processing to cover the plink.

**docbop** · 10-07-2017, 03:23 PM

Practice more acoustically and really listen to your sound closely. Experiment with where you pick the close to the neck the bigger the sound, but it takes some work to get used to, strings are moving around more. After decades of using the same picks (large teardrop heavy) I have changed my picks yes plural I'm still in the evaluation phase. After discovering a few of the guitarist I like use regular size medium picks I've started using those. I like the snap and attack they give the note. I've changed the angle I hold the pick more slanted and that just as much string response as the old heavy picks. Now I'm trying both Dunlop Tortex and regular old Fender plastic since the players I like use those. For me the Tortex has a brighter sound not as full. The plain of Fender medium has a nice full and balanced sound when picking at the increased angle. So it's ahead in my score card. I do grab my old heavy and extra heavy teardrop now and then and they sound dull and really knock the string around compared to the mediums.

Fringe benefit of move to the Fender mediums they are cheap picks you can buy pretty much anywhere and if you lose one it no big deal. Oh the explanation of why the medium pick from one of the guitarist I like is they are about the same thickness of a fingernail and the increased angle (more like angle of Benson style) all adds up to be similar to the fingers of a classical guitarist which are know for their full sound.

**Bluegrass Bill Ward** · 10-07-2017, 05:25 PM

Hi Folks,

Thanks so much to all of you for your contributions and suggestions on this thread! It is so helpful for a relative jazz newbie like myself to be able to tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience folks like you all can share. I now already have plenty of things to consider and try.

Stringswinger, glad to connect with you again with your experience on playing my guitar before it was mine. I plan to follow-up with you via a personal message to discuss your suggestion on swapping the pickup. I am totally open to that idea. I want to leave no stone unturned in trying to get the best sound out of this guitar. I know its got great sound in it, I just have to figure out how to get that great sound out of it!

Many thanks again Folks!

Bill

**CTG** · 10-07-2017, 10:33 PM

I just got back into playing after many years and have been looking for a pick that would give me a warm tone and feels comfortable. I play a Gibson Super 400 with pretty thick flatwounds and found that the pick totally changes the tone. The ones that I found to be best for a warm tone were the Dunlop JD JazzTone 205 or D'Andrea PRO-358 Pointed Teardrop Pro-Plec. The Dunlop is about the size of Jazz III picks but is nylon and 2.mm thick. The D'Andrea is a medium teardrop shape, made out of an acrylic, and is 1.5mm. They are both really sweet picks.

Hope this is helpful.

All the best.

**Bluegrass Bill Ward** · 10-08-2017, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by CTG

I just got back into playing after many years and have been looking for a pick that would give me a warm tone and feels comfortable. I play a Gibson Super 400 with pretty thick flatwounds and found that the pick totally changes the tone. The ones that I found to be best for a warm tone were the Dunlop JD JazzTone 205 or D'Andrea PRO-358 Pointed Teardrop Pro-Plec. The Dunlop is about the size of Jazz III picks but is nylon and 2.mm thick. The D'Andrea is a medium teardrop shape, made out of an acrylic, and is 1.5mm. They are both really sweet picks.

Hope this is helpful.

All the best.

Absolutely, every nugget of information, advice on this challenging topic is helpful and appreciated, Thank You!

**skiboyny** · 10-08-2017, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Bluegrass Bill Ward

Hi Folks, I am enjoying my new (used) Heritage Johnnie Smith very much but still not totally satisfied that my tone is as good as it can get. My first set of strings I changed to are the TI Jazz swing flatwound strings with a .12 high E. I like the sound in general but feel that maybe the high E is a little too thin? It seems it needs a warmer full tone from that string.

I have seen on Youtube and read elsewhere where going up in gage on the high E and in some cases the B is recommended. For example, going to .13 or .14 on the E and .16 on the B string. How many have done this and found it made a significant improvement in how you liked the sound with that change? Also I know picks are very important, have some of you found a certain pick makes all the difference in the world and if so what is that pick So I can try it?

Any other success stories what made big improvements in your sound, especially for a large body Electric arch top Guitar like mine, the Heritage Johnnie Smith, or any other similar Heritage or Gibson large body Electric Arch top would be really appreciated.

FYI, I am playing it both acoustically and with a Fishman Loudbox mini.

Thanks for your help!

Bill

This is a complex question. I have been chasing the answer for many years. To answer your question usually going up in gauge fattens up the sound, but there are many variables to this equation. String build, core shape, and tension come to mind. I think the trick is to find a string with the tension that you can comfortably play, with the compound that your ear finds the most pleasing. I can tell you this I have 3 primary guitars all very similar and strings from 3 different makers on each. For example on a Gibson Legrand I use pyramid nickel classic polished. They make this guitar sing. Yet on my Gibson Johnny Smith (some would say is the early Legrand) they sound quiet and un inspiring! Thomastik's are great on my L5 but (outside of the first few days!)I don't care for them on the Legrand or Johnny. It's trial and error and every guitar is different. Picks I think almost the same rule. Thicker gauge generally make a warmer sound. Telling you what I use may be a place to start but probably won't be your answer.

**wzpgsr** · 10-08-2017, 11:10 AM

This is an interesting thread. I was actually considering selling a once beloved guitar because nothing I did could make it sound right anymore. It is a custom-built guitar and I was either going to have the top rerouted for other pickups or just sell it. Turns out the issue was string volume balance, or rather my sensitivity to it. Every string set I tried had the same problem. With a wound G, the G was too quiet and the plain B string dominated. With a plain G the plain G dominated so badly that everything turned to mud. I had a terrible time tweaking EQ knobs on my amps. I tried everything: tiny magnets on my CC pickup bar magnet to increase volume of other strings, rounds, flats, changing my picking technique, amps, amp settings, picks, pickup height, etc. Couldn’t make it sound good.

Then I bought a set of 11 chromes and swapped out the wound G 22 for a plain 19 per a recommendation of Tim Lerch that I had read. Wow. That was it. Problem solved and now the guitar sounds better than it ever has.

**Alder Statesman** · 10-08-2017, 01:28 PM

Chromes sound great, but I found them very hard to fret. I get get excellent tone with nickel, say D’Addario EPN120’s.

**medblues** · 10-08-2017, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

This is an interesting thread. I was actually considering selling a once beloved guitar because nothing I did could make it sound right anymore. It is a custom-built guitar and I was either going to have the top rerouted for other pickups or just sell it. Turns out the issue was string volume balance, or rather my sensitivity to it. Every string set I tried had the same problem. With a wound G, the G was too quiet and the plain B string dominated. With a plain G the plain G dominated so badly that everything turned to mud. I had a terrible time tweaking EQ knobs on my amps. I tried everything: tiny magnets on my CC pickup bar magnet to increase volume of other strings, rounds, flats, changing my picking technique, amps, amp settings, picks, pickup height, etc. Couldn’t make it sound good.

Then I bought a set of 11 chromes and swapped out the wound G 22 for a plain 19 per a recommendation of Tim Lerch that I had read. Wow. That was it. Problem solved and now the guitar sounds better than it ever has.

Great detective work !

**citizenk74** · 10-08-2017, 03:19 PM

Another plug for the Dunlop JazzTone 205. I like them well worn in. To save time, I spend a few minutes with a nail file and a piece of polished stone to get them nicely blunted (not too much, just enough). Also. the little black Jazz IIs are the ticket with my ES-175. I break them in a bit as well.

**guido5** · 10-08-2017, 03:51 PM

I like the Dunlap JazzTone 204. Darker still! No need for additional break-in...

**Bluegrass Bill Ward** · 10-08-2017, 04:50 PM

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the additional tips! It seems the subject title, "Chasing the elusive Jazz Guitar Tone" is very much right on the target and something virtually everybody has spent a lot of time on. I have put all these comments together in a word document and saved them so I can easily find them and check them off as I investigate each of them.

Is there a great site to find and purchase most all of the guitar picks mentioned, how about buying individual strings?

Thanks again!

Bill

**Alter** · 10-08-2017, 05:43 PM

Elusive is a very good description indeed! I 've played with a 12 set for years, with 14 and 18 (i think) for the first two strings. These days i m using a standard TI Bebop 11 or 12 set. I don't think it was so much the difference in the sound for me, as much as the difference in the tension, i just enjoyed the heavier strings. Your technique adapts though, a small adjustment in pick angle or a different pick, or just paying more attention to the sound you get out of a particular string, and you can have a whole new sound come out from it.

Thats a really great guitar there, enjoy!

**jazzimprov** · 10-08-2017, 06:34 PM

gravity picks !

**2bornot2bop** · 10-08-2017, 09:32 PM

I'd consider shipping the innards of that pickup to Kent Armstrong. He is heralded by Heritage owners for reworking Heritage floating pickups. Kent Armstrong reworked Heritage #3 floaters are documented over and over again throughout the forum archives.

RE amplification...I'd suggest a tube amp...but then again, I'm biased towards archtops mated with tube amps.