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DPA d:vote 4099 is a super-cardioid condenser microphone for acoustic instruments, ideal for the stage.
I´m using one since last year to amplify my classical guitar and I think it sounds great. Although its very light and compact it seems super rugged and due to the super-cardioid pickup pattern it has great gain before it starts to feedback and enough volume to compete with a grand piano or string/wind instruments. If I need to go even louder (usually with drums or loud percussion) I blend it with a contact transducer pickup or just use the DPA for the main speakers and use the contact pickup for monitoring instead.
Anyway, I just made a video demo of the DPA 4099g with some samples. What do you think?
If there is enough interest I will make one with an archtop.
KonstantineLast edited by konstantine; 10-02-2017 at 08:13 AM.
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10-02-2017 07:41 AM
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damn, that sounds pretty good. i wouldn't complain about the sound, so long as you can control feedback and stage volume. i'm not sure a live, mic'ed nylon can sound much better or more natural than that. good work, mitch.
i haven't tried to amplify a nylon string, but i do have a dual source on one of my steel strings, and it's the best thing i ever heard. its a schertler sound hole pickup with an added internal mic. they make nylon stuff, and contact mics as well, but you'd lose the flexibility that the dpa gives you as far as switching between guitars instantly.
i just use a floater on my archtop. not as accurate or natural as the dpa probably is, but easier and faster and cheaper and all that.
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Thanks Mitch! It can get fairly loud without feedback, you just have to experiment with the position of the monitor/amp a bit but it won't work so problem-free in a small bar with loud audience and a band competing with them.
Originally Posted by feet
I totally agree, I also use a floater on my archtop, you loose some of the acoustic qualities but is much more hassle free and it can still sound great, I can't stand pickups on a classical though!
Btw, which preamp (if you use any specific) are you using of the dual sourcing?
Konstantine
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Sounds great!
Did you add any effects, post-production? I seme to hear reverb, maybe?
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Thanks man, I kinda duplicated the settings I use in concerts with a HPF (80Hz) in a touch of reverb in Logic. I wouldn't put my ear 10cm from the soundhole and experience the sound of an my guitar as it sounds in a room. :P Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Live I use a Headway EDB-2 preamp for the mic or blending, with the HPF and normally the gooseneck of the DPA offers enough flexibility to find the sweet spot on my guitar without touching the EQ - so I usually leave them on 0 or remove some low end if the place is booming - and a Strymon Flint if there is not enough reverb in the room for my taste.
Konstantine
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none, really. the schertler has individual volumes for the soundhole and mic. if things get to loud or feedback-y, i just roll the mic down (or off). it sums to one output jack. i'm not sure if you could split it from there, i haven't cared to look. i highly recommend it. failing that, i would have tried the fishman rare earth blend, but that works a little differently. Originally Posted by konstantine
but i've done some experiments with another sound hole pup i have lying around (the cheapest fishman one) in addition to whatever is already in my other guitars (a baggs lyric internal mic in one and a baggs element piezo in another). luckily, my amps have at least two ins so i just do that. or run them into my recording preamp on different channels. i've thought of getting fancy, but i really want to keep things clean and simple for live stuff.
but, if i did (and i have thought about it) i'd probably pick up the telefunken passive di. doesn't need power and it couldn't be easier than that. and i use two shadow hills mono gamas at home. i find that though they aren't super necessary, a nice transformer just adds something amazing that's really subtle and hard to define. you definitely notice when its gone.
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The 4099 is wonderful. I did a little Youtube demo with it on nylon and dobro some years ago. Seems like a popular choice, from looking at the Youtube searches
On my flat top steel string I use the 4060 underneath the strings in the soundhole. Seems that I can get at least the same level before feedback with that option since it's so close to the strings. Requires some extra eq'ing on the bottom end, but it's invisible and out of the way (I've knocked that 4099 off the guitar a couple of times
).
And yeah, piezo in the monitor is your best bet! At least if there's a drummer in the house.
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There is always a dilemma between simplicity and "ideal" live sound. Originally Posted by feet
Now I have to check those telefunkens!
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Thankfully I don't move so much when I play! Btw, I saw your video quite a few times before I got mine. Originally Posted by Runepune
The 4099 is wonderful. I did a little Youtube demo with it on nylon and dobro some years ago. Seems like a popular choice, from looking at the Youtube searches
On my flat top steel string I use the 4060 underneath the strings in the soundhole. Seems that I can get at least the same level before feedback with that option since it's so close to the strings. Requires some extra eq'ing on the bottom end, but it's invisible and out of the way (I've knocked that 4099 off the guitar a couple of times ).
And yeah, piezo in the monitor is your best bet! At least if there's a drummer in the house.
Konstantine
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Sounds like a great setup! I've been venturing into nylon lately, although I play it with a pick, like any other guitar. In my case, I have pickups and a TC multi fx pedal - but I might consider one of those DPA one day! Originally Posted by konstantine
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don't take my word for it- i've never used or even heard the telefunkens. they are fairly new and i haven't seen any demos. they just seem like a simple enough box that is small enough to travel well, can handle two sources without power at a decent price point.
i hear nice things about the countrymen di, but it only handles one source. i may have gotten the neve one if it could handle two sources. several radial boxes almost work, but they are generally larger and require power. failing those, you could look at di made more acoustics like the red eye or schertler, etc, but nothing really seems as plug and play for both mics and guitar. and part of it is the reputation- i'm just assuming it sounds good.
my recording preamps sound amazing through a pa, so i want to get as close to that as i can.
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Lovely playing and very useful review. I would love to hear the DPA on an archtop. I have a vintage Gibson acoustic Super 300 and have thought this might be a great non invasive way to amplify rather than a floater Dearmond approach that requires some more permanent mounting
Will
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I´m happy with it! If budget concerns you, the Bartlett mic is not as expensive as the DPA and supposedly sounds quite good. Post clips when you have something! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
You have invested a lot of time on DIs, nice, as stated above I use the Headway EDB-2 which is reasonably priced, battery powered, small enough and has tons of flexibility, but of course not as nice and silent as my recording preamps. I would love to try the Grace Alix, but it is crazy expensive in Europe. Originally Posted by feet
don't take my word for it- i've never used or even heard the telefunkens. they are fairly new and i haven't seen any demos. they just seem like a simple enough box that is small enough to travel well, can handle two sources without power at a decent price point.
i hear nice things about the countrymen di, but it only handles one source. i may have gotten the neve one if it could handle two sources. several radial boxes almost work, but they are generally larger and require power. failing those, you could look at di made more acoustics like the red eye or schertler, etc, but nothing really seems as plug and play for both mics and guitar. and part of it is the reputation- i'm just assuming it sounds good. my recording preamps sound amazing through a pa, so i want to get as close to that as i can.
Thanks Will, I think I will make some samples with my Elferink, I´m also curious to listen! Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
Konstantine
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Yes, I'll do some clips if I decide to go some route, I'm still getting used to nylon, trying some strings, etc... Looking forward for more clips!
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Nice, looking forward! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Sounds nice, and nice playing. I only listened on an iPad, so take this with a grain of salt (but I am a mic snob, so maybe 2 grains),
it was perhaps just a touch bassy (mostly due to position). Not terrible, but it had my speakers "rattling". Perhaps for live use you could get a little more volume if you rolled the bass off just a hair.
Again, it sounds nice. I would much rather hear that than the thin, mic 2 ft away sound.
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Great review and playing! This seems like a great option for live playing. Does anyone have a recommendation for an affordable mic for recording acoustic guitar?
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Thank you, I appreciate your comments! Aiming a little more towards the 12th fret reduces some bass but I like overall more how it sounds aiming towards the soundhole. Usually on a concert I have to remove some lows especially if the room is not big enough and/or I stand close to the amp/monitors. Originally Posted by vintagelove
As I say on the video, for a studio recording I would use different mics mainly because you get more placement options and can get a little further away from the top to get a more complete image of the instrument. But the last years I have tried lots of different options for amplifying the classical guitar and nothing is as natural as a DPA on the stage.
Btw, I´m also not a fun of the "modern" mic 2ft away sound!
Depends on the budget, I have had decent results with a couple of budget SDCs: Originally Posted by jgs2n
Oktava MK12 - sounds warm enough but also a little cloudy
Line Audio CM3 - very cheap, it won't colour the sound of your guitar but sounds kinda thin to me
both of these (especially the CM3) are relatively noisy mics - depending on how dynamic is your music and how good are your preamps it might bother you or not. I still have a pair of them because for their price/quality raton they are kind no brainer not to keep a spare pair.
sE Electronics has the just released the sE8 which from the specs seems to be the perfect combination of price, voicing and singal to noise ratio, I haven't tied it yet, but I will soon as they might replace the CM3s for me.
Another interesting mic that I haven't had the chance to hear in person yet is the Audio Technica AE5100, a little bit more expensive though.
After trying all sorts of SDC, almost any of any budget, I´ve moved on to LDC, I think they can sound bigger and sweeter, they might be a little less "true" than high quality SDC and the good ones that are not hyped in the highs are usually quite expensive but you can't have everything.
Konstantine
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+1 for the DPA4099 for acoustic archtop guitar. (As a bunch of you are probably tired of reading) I use one with the "cello" mount on the tailpiece or strings aimed down at the top on the treble side between the strings and f-hole, but not pointed at the f-hole. I also find little need to EQ it since it sounds so natural. But like ALL microphones, positioning can result in very different sounds, so you need to dial in the sweet spot.
ANY TIME you use a microphone, feedback is an issue. However, I've had great success by aligning my monitors/amps off axis to the microphone. Most of the time monitors are placed in front of a player, but this allows the top of the guitar to simply reflect the sound of the monitor right back into the mic - NO GOOD. I found that if the monitor were off to my left side, it was off axis to the top of the guitar and the mic. When I use an acoustic amp for smaller gigs, I place it behind me and to my left so that my body functions as a GOBO between the mic and the amp. But basically, it means I have to place myself stage LEFT most of the time.
Since bass frequencies are the most omni-directional, they're where feedback creeps in most easily. So, I occasionally use a High Pass Filter (if there's one on the board or amp, or whatever) to dump the low bass. Plus, the most traditional uses of acoustic archtop don't require crazy thumpin' low end (sub bass, etc.), you don't really miss it. Also, avoiding the f-holes helps to keep woofy bass frequencies at bay.
I've also used the Audio Technica line of lavalier microphones (AT831b, Pro35) with great success, but the DPA4099 is a big step up in terms of sound quality and the mount is far superior for an archtop.
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i stared long and hard at the grace (and the headway and schertler, too) but i assume that those optimize your sound and let your instrument come through and all that, which is great, but i am after something different. i want a little color/flavor added because going direct from guitar into a pa is a little dry to me and my tube/volume stained ears. Originally Posted by konstantine
while its still a surprisingly good sound, using my little carvin line array thing, i do find that i greatly prefer the sound of the preamps in line, which leads me to suspect that i could use an extra transformer or two in my life, and not just eq (which is nice) or whatever. i'm just guessing, though. won't know until i buy it, but that's i was specifically after that telefunken- small, self contained, passive, dual source, simple, relatively affordable. just have no idea what it sounds like.
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Originally Posted by campusfive
Chico Pinheiro uses a body mount mic on his Benedetto over his neck, get a great sound. Don't know what mic it is looks big to be a DPA.
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Looks exactly like a DPA to me Originally Posted by docbop
Chico Pinheiro uses a body mount mic on his Benedetto over his neck, get a great sound. Don't know what mic it is looks big to be a DPA.
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Thanks for all the info about using the DPA with an Archtop, about placement relatively to the amp/monitor, I do the same with my classical (and with my archtop(s) even if I´m not using a mic). I place the monitor/amp always on my left side and as further away as I can. If there is a monitor blasting from the front, even if the mic blocks all the sound from behind (relatively to the mic), the guitar itself resonates and... feedback occurs. Originally Posted by campusfive
Please let me know about the Telefunken if you finally get to try it, I usually avoid adding more colour my miced classical guitar, maybe that is the secret in actually getting my contact transducer (Carols CS Sensor) to sound a little nicer alone. Originally Posted by feet
i stared long and hard at the grace (and the headway and schertler, too) but i assume that those optimize your sound and let your instrument come through and all that, which is great, but i am after something different. i want a little color/flavor added because going direct from guitar into a pa is a little dry to me and my tube/volume stained ears.
while its still a surprisingly good sound, using my little carvin line array thing, i do find that i greatly prefer the sound of the preamps in line, which leads me to suspect that i could use an extra transformer or two in my life, and not just eq (which is nice) or whatever. i'm just guessing, though. won't know until i buy it, but that's i was specifically after that telefunken- small, self contained, passive, dual source, simple, relatively affordable. just have no idea what it sounds like.
That is the DPA with the acoustic guitar mount. Originally Posted by docbop
Konstantine
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