Does archtop size matter?

[Meggy]

Please excuse the cheesy title pun. But really just another of my "what if?" possible guitar purchase muses. So... what if I was thinking of getting another archtop to go with my Joe Pass? The JP is quite small at less than 16" across and maybe 2.5" or so deep at a guess. But I like it a lot, especially for the woody acoustic quality to the amplified sound. So, if I went for a big archtop (like the Epi Emperor Regent say), besides more acoustic volume (which would be nice), would I also get more of that woody acoustic sound when amplified? Or would I just have another nice archtop?

Other related question - what difference does the laminate or carved top issue make to things in terms of tone?

[Meggy]

I see the replies are flooding in, maybe it was a pretty dumb question... My trouble is I'm always convinced I need one more guitar than I actually have, it's just that I'm never sure what it actually is LOL! Perhaps I should just get a Tele, never had one of those and I do like Ted Greene. Not that it would make me sound like him obviously... And I still like those hybrid Crafter SAT models, could put some flatwounds on and... or maybe I really should have a nice classic semiacoustic 335 type of guitar, although would I use it a lot for jazz given that I already have the archtop? Or...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A lot of these questions are matters of personal taste. You have to sit down with some of these guitars and just play them.

As an example: a big box archtop. Are you happy with your JP's sound? Do you really need a guitar that's louder acoustically? Some people find their bodies too wide or too thick for playing comfort. I have a full-sized carved archtop with a floating pickup and I'm in love with the unamplified sound, but it's a constant battle to use an amp, the top vibrates so sympathetically. At home, I play in a different room from the amp, or at least aim it out a doorway!

[rio]

Laminate vs. carved - carved will give you a better acoustic tone and has a slightly different character when amplified, but feeds back more. Laminate is prefered by some for electric playing because the tone is more subdued and has a higher feedback threshhold, but it does not sound as good acoustically. The easiest way to find the difference is try to find a music store that carries archtops and compare them - your ears will hear the difference both acoustically and amplified. Also if you are doing an A/B comparison in the store, keep in mind the difference in pickups, as that will give you a difference when amplified as you know.

[mr. beaumont]

the biggest factor after lam/carved is routed pickup/ floater. i'd put body width near the bottom of tone factors, with depth ahead of it for sure.

if you're gonna go all freddie green, get the biggest, deepest, uncut jazzbox you can find.


man, i've retyped that last sentence three times now and it still sounds dirty.

[rabbit]

yeah, but good-dirty!

[MGI]

The tone of the strings colored by top's wood, size of the body, tension of the strings and quality of the strings. Bigger body gives more depth of the sound, carved wood gives more natural sound than laminate. And this all picked by pickup, so, even amplified, bigger body with real wood top will sound significantly better. Nothing can replace real wood, otherwise people would cast guitars from plastic.
Feedback is not a problem with carved top, all depend on body construction.

[Bill C]

bigger body with real wood top will sound significantly better.

I think this is subjective. The carved wood sound is perhaps "purer" but this isn't always better imo

[MGI]

Don't say it to luthiers or professional players.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Feedback is not a problem with carved top, all depend on body construction.

Not a problem? That's news to me. I suppose if your carved top was an inch thick and had massive bracing, but for typical carved tops, they are made to vibrate.

[riovine]

Not a problem? That's news to me. I suppose if your carved top was an inch thick and had massive bracing, but for typical carved tops, they are made to vibrate.

I think what sometimes gets lost in the discussion about solid carved archtops being prone to feedback is that you really can't consider the guitar in isolation, but rather need to consider the guitar and amp as a whole system, so it is not just the guitar per-se.

You need to really be sure you have the right amp mated to the right guitar. I've played my various fully carved archtops through amps that were pure feedback hell, even at low volumes. I've played those same guitars through other amps and have had virtually no feedback issues, even at very respectable volumes.

Of course, that is even without doing all the other things you can normally do to reduce feedback like amp placement, guitar orientation etc.

If all else fails, there is always this:

Sabine FBX-SOLO SL820 Digital Feedback Eliminator with 1/4" I/O and more Feedback Supression at GuitarCenter.com.

I got one for gigs I play with my various acoustic guitars (steel, nylon etc). Feedback problem eliminated, much better than simple notch filters, soundhole covers etc. And it still maintains your original sound.

I don't need it for my archtop because I have a good amp/guitar combo, but you could certainly use it for that if you had bad feedback issues.

[Meggy]

A lot of these questions are matters of personal taste. You have to sit down with some of these guitars and just play them.

As an example: a big box archtop. Are you happy with your JP's sound? Do you really need a guitar that's louder acoustically? Some people find their bodies too wide or too thick for playing comfort. I have a full-sized carved archtop with a floating pickup and I'm in love with the unamplified sound, but it's a constant battle to use an amp, the top vibrates so sympathetically. At home, I play in a different room from the amp, or at least aim it out a doorway!

Thanks for all the replies guys, actually some good points being made which do at least help me to consider what it is I actually WANT from my guitar(s). I think for me there just is a certain SOMETHING about a hand made, carved archtop that I can't get away from - one day I think I will have one - I would love one of MGI's beauties (oh yes, it will be mine!). But BDLH, you make me think long and hard about the size thing! Actually I do like the sound I get from the JP, so wanting a bigger guitar is not necessarily right for me. And the Epi Emperor Regent for example is still a laminate top. I think it would be a sideways move only for me, and I take your point about the amping issues. Plus do I want a guitar specifically for acoustic playing? Answer: no, so... Some of the other answers make the point that the tone quality is quite a complex web of factors, so again there is no simple answer. Let your ears decide seems good advice so cheers to whoever it was came up with that one!

[msr13]

Although my experience is limited, I will offer my two cents. To me comfort is a very important consideration, as well. The 17" is too big for my playing technique. After 20 minutes, I get very uncomfortable sitting. Standing is fine, but I prefer sitting. I find, as Mr. Beaumont said, that size is probably the lowest factor on the list of influences. Type of pick-up, and how the pick-ups are made affect tone quite a bit, IMHO, as well.

[Jazzarian]

Not a problem? That's news to me. I suppose if your carved top was an inch thick and had massive bracing, but for typical carved tops, they are made to vibrate.

How about a 17" L5 vs an 18" Super400? Is the L5, "big enough"? Or, is the Super400 "too big"?

[Meggy]

Although my experience is limited, I will offer my two cents. To me comfort is a very important consideration, as well. The 17" is too big for my playing technique. After 20 minutes, I get very uncomfortable sitting. Standing is fine, but I prefer sitting. I find, as Mr. Beaumont said, that size is probably the lowest factor on the list of influences. Type of pick-up, and how the pick-ups are made affect tone quite a bit, IMHO, as well.

True I guess, and my JP is very comfortable in it's dimensions for me. I like it's sound and playability, and it is very well made (from the golden early 80's Ibanez era). So why do I want anything else? It's just guitar aquisition fever I guess!

[msr13]

G.A.S. is as good a reason as any!

[Meggy]

G.A.S. is as good a reason as any!

Cheers! Thanks for saying that! If I do buy another guitar I guess it has to do something apreciably different from the JP as I have that one covered, so I'm sort of drifting around trying to find out exactly what that guitar IS LOL!

[MikeJ]

How about a 17" L5 vs an 18" Super400? Is the L5, "big enough"? Or, is the Super400 "too big"?

I Have a Super 400 and a Johnny Smith (17")..
If I have been playing the Super 400 a while the Johnny smith feels small.. and after a few days on the JS the S400 feels like a beast.. It more what you get used to. The JS is far more acoustically live (no routed in pickups) and louder (same reason) but both (to me) sound and feel great in their own way.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

How about a 17" L5 vs an 18" Super400? Is the L5, "big enough"? Or, is the Super400 "too big"?

I wonder if anyone here has a 19" Stromberg Master 400, like Freddie Green's? Momma!

[Jazzarian]

I Have a Super 400 and a Johnny Smith (17")..
If I have been playing the Super 400 a while the Johnny smith feels small.. and after a few days on the JS the S400 feels like a beast.. It more what you get used to. The JS is far more acoustically live (no routed in pickups) and louder (same reason) but both (to me) sound and feel great in their own way.

Indeed.

My everyday guitar is a GB10. My Super V CES feels immense when I break it out of the case to record something. I've also transitioned from floating pickups to set pickups.

[Jazzarian]

I wonder if anyone here has a 19" Stromberg Master 400, like Freddie Green's? Momma!

Nobody needs 19 inches. Nobody can afford an original Stromberg either.

I wonder if Benedetto, Buscarino, Monteleone or Campellone ever made 19" archtops?

Only those blessed with Italian last names could ever dream of such.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Nobody needs 19 inches. Nobody can afford an original Stromberg either.

I wonder if Benedetto, Buscarino, Monteleone or Campellone ever made 19" archtops?

Only those blessed with Italian last names could ever dream of such.

I wonder if there's a correlation between one's preferences in guitar size and one's predilection in female anatomy. I know I like 'em both curvy.

[mr. beaumont]

then i assume my love of telecasters means??????

[Jazzarian]

then i assume my love of telecasters means??????

You're Irish, dreaming of being Italian..........

[Regi]

I'm gonna get one of those rectangular Bo Didley jobs.