Best Neck Pickup for Gibson Les Paul Custom?

[Stringswinger]

The two mid 50's LP customs I had in the early 70's were both equipped with the bar magnet neck pups which I disliked. The bridge pups OTOH were marvelous, EXTREMELY noisy but wonderful. Before selling the LPs I harvested both of the bridge pups and still have them today.

Someday I'm going to find a nice p90 equipped LP and have a go at it with the 50's pups.

I am betting that you regret not keeping one of those Black Beauties from the 50's for the long haul. I remember in the early 70's they could be had for around $600-$700 (4-5 grand in today's dollars). I berated a friend for paying $650 for a 1963 Strat in 1980 (He still has that guitar). Boy was I wrong....

[LtKojak]

I own a 2002 Gibson 57 Black Beauty reissue. This is an all mahogany body (no maple cap) guitar that came stock with a Burstbucker 2 in the neck and a Burstbucker 3 in the bridge. Many years ago, when I got this guitar, I was still doing the occasional rock gig. Seeing as I haven't done a rock gig in about 8 years and have no plans on playing that kind of music again, I have tough about selling this guitar. It gets a great rock/blues sound, but I have never been able to get a good jazz sound. I have owned other Les Pauls in the past, including a maple capped 1975 Les Paul Custom that sounded great for jazz. And people say that the all mahogany version gets a dark, smoky tone. Well that should be great for jazz, but mine is not.

Chords sound a bit muddy and ill defined and the top end is a bit too mid rangey for my tastes. I changed the aluminum tailpiece for a more modern zinc one and while it added some body to the bass response (a good thing IMO) the sound is not there. So I want to try a pickup swap. And seeing as I do not use the bridge pickup for jazz and that my goal is to make this a useful jazz guitar for loud gigs, I am only interested in replacing the neck pickup. Here are the choices that I am considering:

Gibson 57 Classic. I have these in three archtops and I think they make a great jazz tone. I am concerned that they might be too "muddy" sounding in this particular guitar. They are very bass heavy in the neck position.

Duncan 59. These are essentially a 57 classic but with an alnico 5 magnet. I put one of these into my Strat and I get great jazz tone with that guitar. My concern here is that the top end may be too bright.

Vintage Gibson early patent sticker humbucker. I have one of these left over from my 63 ES-175 restoration project (I bought 3 as a package deal). This pickup came out of a 63 ES-335. It is essentially a PAF with a different insulating material on the wire (poly as opposed to enamel). I would have to get some gold pole pieces and a gold cover (I would probably just take them off the stock Burstbucker) and then I have a real PAF in the guitar.

I am not interested in trying any of the boutique pickups (Throbak, Lollar etc.) because I have an actual vintage PAF already, but I wonder if my first two choices may give me a more "detailed" jazz sound (especially the Duncan 59) and be better in this guitar for the sound I am looking for. I use TI Swing 12's for a jazz sound on a Les Paul.

All responses are appreciated!

P'up-wise, you need to do two things:
1st: change the magnet on the BB#2 with a fully-charged A3
2nd: set the p'ups height right.

I'd start with 2.5mm in the bridge and 4mm in the bridge. Then adjust to taste.

The other thing to do is to change the 300K vol pots with a 550K linear for the neck volume and a 500K linear for the bridge.

HTH,

[MaxTwang]

I am not interested in trying any of the boutique pickups (Throbak, Lollar etc.) because I have an actual vintage PAF already, but I wonder if my first two choices may give me a more "detailed" jazz sound (especially the Duncan 59) and be better in this guitar for the sound I am looking for. I use TI Swing 12's for a jazz sound on a Les Paul.

All responses are appreciated!

I wouldn't necessarily consider Lollar a traditional PAF, I feel Lollar has his own thing going on which may be based on PAF's but with much greater clarity. It may be worth taking the time to call Lollar for their recommendations on which of their pickups would best meet your objective (perhaps even a Charlie Christian for Humbucker or a Lollartron).

http://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups

[Stringswinger]

P'up-wise, you need to do two things:
1st: change the magnet on the BB#2 with a fully-charged A3
2nd: set the p'ups height right.

I'd start with 2.5mm in the bridge and 4mm in the bridge. Then adjust to taste.

The other thing to do is to change the 300K vol pots with a 550K linear for the neck volume and a 500K linear for the bridge.

HTH,

Pepe, your response is interesting. I have experimented with PUP height to no avail. I will check the pots. They are CTS and supposed to be 500K. Why do you suggest a 550K over 500K pot for the neck volume?

Why do you suggest an Alnico 3 magnet and not Alnico 5?

Won't the unbalanced coils of the BB2 still give me too much midrange?

As far as the bridge PUP and pots goes, it is of no matter to me. I pretty much am a neck PUP guy.

Thanks in advance for the reply.

[neatomic]

the common misnomer is that alnico numbers go in order of strength..this is not true!!!

alnico 3 is actually weaker than alnico 2!!...so i think that's the exact opposite direction of how op/ss should go!!!

alnico 5 gets you the lows and the snap

i would also recommend you play with the pickup heights again..it makes huge difference...sink the pickup down low into the pickup ring...play it..then bring it up till the pole pieces are almost touching the strings..huge difference in tone and volume!!

you just have to patiently tweak it till you find your sweetspot...then adjust the polepieces for further fine tuning

cheers

ps- good chart

[GNAPPI]

Jeez, this thread has me wondering how anyone could make a decision :-)

Check your PM's from me maybe I can help you out.

[Stringswinger]

Jeez, this thread has me wondering how anyone could make a decision :-)

Check your PM's from me maybe I can help you out.

Everyone's ears are different. Thanks for the PM. I found some useful info in the thread. I am glad I posted the question here. If I posted the same question on The Les Paul Forum, many of the guys there would be confused by the notion of using the Lester to play jazz....

[Herbie]

I think that LtKojak has a point – as usual. While the strength of A3 magnet is not amongst the strongest, I think it will suit well together with mild overwinding of the Bb2 pickup.

I had a problem with a neck hb of an ash bodied Fender type guitar. Finally a SD 59 with A4 magnet gave me everything I can hope from a humbucker. In that guitar the basic A5 was thin and harsh and A3 was a bit too round.

But most guitars are different!

[LtKojak]

Why do you suggest an Alnico 3 magnet and not Alnico 5?

What I'm suggesting is based on first-hand experience; knowing pretty well the inherent tonefootprint of BBs. The BB#2 was originally designed to be a matching bridge p'up for the BB#1 on the neck, hence the woolyness.

An A5 will amplify everything's wrong with that p'up. The A3 will give you the clarity and note separation you're looking for.

Won't the unbalanced coils of the BB2 still give me too much midrange?

First, that's not what mismatched coils bring to the table. The resulting comb-filtering effect adds articulation to a pretty even-sounding wind. Second, BBs are NOT really coil-mismatched, even though their verbatim on their site says so. It's not the first time the info found there is either misleading, or simply wrong.

I've dissected and reverse-engineered quite a few Classic '57/Classic '57+, all three BBs and the 490R/T and 490R/498T sets just to see what all the fuss was about, just to see that all of them had balanced coils. A golden Pinocchio Award for Gibson! But, to be honest, I don't think there's anybody @ Gibson today that knows enough about p'up design in their midst. Even today, for the top management @Gibson, p'ups are just considered a "necessary evil" to sell guitars, so no a lot of QC going around them.

As far as the bridge PUP and pots goes, it is of no matter to me. I pretty much am a neck PUP guy.

And that's even a bigger reason to clean it up and do a neck-pup-only setup on your guitar.

HTH,

[Stringswinger]

What I'm suggesting is based on first-hand experience; knowing pretty well the inherent tonefootprint of BBs. The BB#2 was originally designed to be a matching bridge p'up for the BB#1 on the neck, hence the woolyness.

An A5 will amplify everything's wrong with that p'up. The A3 will give you the clarity and note separation you're looking for.


First, that's not what mismatched coils bring to the table. The resulting comb-filtering effect adds articulation to a pretty even-sounding wind. Second, BBs are NOT really coil-mismatched, even though their verbatim on their site says so. It's not the first time the info found there is either misleading, or simply wrong.

I've dissected and reverse-engineered quite a few Classic '57/Classic '57+, all three BBs and the 490R/T and 490R/498T sets just to see what all the fuss was about, just to see that all of them had balanced coils. A golden Pinocchio Award for Gibson! But, to be honest, I don't think there's anybody @ Gibson today that knows enough about p'up design in their midst. Even today, for the top management @Gibson, p'ups are just considered a "necessary evil" to sell guitars, so no a lot of QC going around them.


And that's even a bigger reason to clean it up and do a neck-pup-only setup on your guitar.

HTH,

Thanks again. You have added an option that I never considered. Taming the BB2. Who would have thought? Now I need to send Al Gore a thank you note for inventing the Internet.

[GNAPPI]

A golden Pinocchio Award for Gibson! But, to be honest, I don't think there's anybody @ Gibson today that knows enough about p'up design in their midst.

Add to that spraying sunbursts and I'm dubious about the rest! :-)

[Stringswinger]

Add to that spraying sunbursts and I'm dubious about the rest! :-)

The Sunburst on my 97 Super 400 is as good as any, from any era. But that was 20 years ago......

[Longways to Go]

FWIW, I think the Burstbucker #1 is a great sounding neck pickup . . .

[hotpepper01]

Tim Shaw pickups sounded great in my 1980 LPC, especially the neck pickup...to my ears way better than T tops.

[Stringswinger]

Tim Shaw pickups sounded great in my 1980 LPC, especially the neck pickup...to my ears way better than T tops.

I had an 80's Lester with the Shaw Pups. Great jazz sound. That was a maple capped Lester though. I wonder if the Shaw pups, like the 57 Classic might be too dark?

[LtKojak]

Well, a Shaw was basically a T-Top with an UOA5 magnet.

A bit darker, but with a much bigger harmonic complexity.

The lows tend to be a bit "spongy", though.

HTH,

[jads57]

It seems as though your guitars acoustic tone should be the first consideration, along with actual wiring. If the wiring is not the issue, then swapping magnets, then actual pickups until you find your ideal match.
Don't discount pickup makers like Manluis Pickups, or Vintage Vibe (Peter Biltoft) Not only affordable $ but very helpful in finding your solution as well.

[Stringswinger]

It seems as though your guitars acoustic tone should be the first consideration, along with actual wiring. If the wiring is not the issue, then swapping magnets, then actual pickups until you find your ideal match.
Don't discount pickup makers like Manluis Pickups, or Vintage Vibe (Peter Biltoft) Not only affordable $ but very helpful in finding your solution as well.

Acoustic tone is way better than amplified tone through all 4 of my main rigs. The wiring looks real good. It is the PUP. I think I am going to swap the PUP (as opposed to the magnet) and see what happens. I am pretty sure that a BB2 in the neck position of a Les Paul is lousy for jazz. And seeing as Gibson switched a year later to a BB1, I think they got the memo. The BB2 is a great rock/metal PUP in the Lester neck position for sure, but it is a one trick pony. I just do not play that rock stuff anymore.

[LtKojak]

a BB2 in the neck position of a Les Paul is lousy for jazz. And seeing as Gibson switched a year later to a BB1, I think they got the memo

If you think Gibson changed p'ups due to tone, then think again.

[Stringswinger]

If you think Gibson changed p'ups due to tone, then think again.

OK, what is your take on why they switched?

[GNAPPI]

If you think Gibson changed p'ups due to tone, then think again.

I'm thinking the only reasons could be lower cost, difficulty / ease to make, need to "sell tickets" for a wowie zoomo "new" PAF. But I doubt these are the reasons, I'll go with "perceived" tone, to sucker in tone chasers and boost the bottom line :-)

I've said it before, just about EVERY maker has their take on a 57,58, or "classic sound" all to be sold to people who most likely never heard a PAF. Even Gibson has not done it, OK, maybe their 57 classics ring my bell, but even a broken clock is right twice a day :-)

[Guitarbean25]

I'd say, go to Kent Armstrong and have him wind you one with the original specifications of the Benedetto B6.

This!

I had Kent wind me some of his own PAFs after I described my guitar (also a 57 Custom) and sound I wanted. Lots of clarity.

[entresz]

My favourite humbucker is the Bill Lawrence (Wilde) L-90.
Very open sounding, a little bit like the low impedance pickups on my Les Paul Recording; but still fat sounding like one would expect a humbucker to be. The only criticism of it is that it doesn't look the same as a regular humbucker.

[jads57]

So we all have different expectations from our gear, and different ears/likes as well. All I can say after trying just about every Humbucker out there, these are my choices for neck position

Manluis Landmark PAF regular wind, Gibson Memphis PAF, Sheptone PAF, SD Seth Lover, Dimarzio 36th Anniversary, SD Jazz

[LtKojak]

OK, what is your take on why they switched?

Because of the production cost of a particular batch of parts' bulk buy at a certain point on time.

Don't forget that Gibson buys everything by brokerage, that's why specs keeps changing on many items, specially p'ups.

Sorry to hurt your fanboiness, I just deal with facts, not perception.

HTH,