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I'm damn curious about the stock frets on these early 50's era Gibson Es-175s.
I just played one at the shop that belonged to an old-timer who recently passed. One owner. Very good shape. Question:
What's up with the frets?
They are the most non-existent frets I've ever played. It may sound like an exaggeration, but it was as close to fretless as I've ever played. And...they weren't worn. It was more of an ornament than a instrument for the previous owner. RIP.
On consignment for $4,150. Original case.
I'm really not asking if it's a good deal, more interested in guys who play vintage Gibsons explaining the frets. (I used to own a es-330 but it was nothing like this).
I've never sounded or played better than on this instrument (and I wasn't warmed up). The P90s just sung. The sustain was incredible. But those damn frets. What's up with that? Butter.
Last edited by Richard Luther; 08-22-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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08-22-2017 06:33 PM
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I have owned a few 50's guitars and they all had low frets. That is what guys liked in those days. If you are used to medium jumbos, low frets feel like an impediment. $4150 sounds to me like top dollar for that guitar. Factor in the cost of a refret as well. It will make you like the guitar much more. Be advised that some collectors will lose interest in a guitar that has been refretted.
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That is one of my dream guitars, a real classic and I'm sure the P90s are killer. I hope it works out for you.
I have a similar vintage ES-125 with those mini frets for a long time. I never liked them, but I never changed them because they were in good shape, the guitar was set-up just right for me and I liked everything else about it, esp the P90. Eventually I got used to them and they don't bother me after a few minutes of playing. When they need replacement (soon) I'll go med jumbo and not worry about collectors. My guitars are for playing, plus none are in the kind of museum condition collectors are interested in. I more recently picked up a same year L-4, very clean, but poorly set up and needing frets. Those I replaced right away with med jumbos and I'm glad I did.
Get a solid quote on a re-fret. Who knows, maybe the seller will help... it never hurts to ask!
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Yes, the old ones have skinny frets. And the VOS 1959 ES175 has them as well. I actually like them a lot on my VOS1959 model, though I also like the bigger frets on my other guitars. I haven't noticed any difference in playing, but some people really don't like those older skinny frets.
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And if it helps, before you take the plunge and do the re-fret, at least plan on a pro setup and change to heavier gauge strings.......
..Those frets seem to dictate going up on the thickness scale.....(( ask me how I know )).
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The early 50s Gibbys had tiny frets alright. I like them, but if your comparison is a 60s Les Paul you aren't going to be happy. The advice above--i.e., use fat strings--is right on. .14-.58 flats will make you not notice the frets. Get yourself a set of TI George Bensons and don't look back. They are effortless to play and they sound like JAZZ, JAZZ, JAZZ on the ES-175.
Last edited by Greentone; 08-23-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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"$4150 sounds to me like top dollar for that guitar"
sounds about right for a double pickup 175 in very good conditon.
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Perhaps, but adding a fret job cost to the equation might mean paying too much.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Oh man Dennis, that's beautiful. And the original Lifton Case.. "Built Like A Fortress".. Originally Posted by Dennis D
And if it helps, before you take the plunge and do the re-fret, at least plan on a pro setup and change to heavier gauge strings.......
..Those frets seem to dictate going up on the thickness scale.....(( ask me how I know )).
I can smell the inside of that case from here.. Heaven. And the sound of latch when you open it. It brings me back. Wayyy back.
The Skinny frets were all I knew when I was growing up learning on my fathers '53 175d. Up until 25 years ago, I thought that was the only way frets came.. Then I got hooked on L5 frets and never looked back. One thing to consider. The wider/higher frets feel funny on a 175. The shorter scale makes the Medium Jumbo's feel like they are toooo big. If you get the guitar and change the frets, match the frets they put on the current 175's. I think they are perfect for that guitar.
Joe D
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They were skinny, and the intonation and definition was clear because of that, if you could hear it. Too, if a guitar is old, and if the frets have been leveled, and recrowned properly, and worn down, and leveled... it doesn't take long before you're feeling like the frets are token gestures. That's normal. It that's the case, know what you need from a neck and for goodness sake, get a new set of frets and play and love it. But know that it will necessitate a new nut (unless you shim) and the feel, action, sound and relief will all undergo a change to some degree... maybe a lot. But that's not a bad thing. Make it play its best, then you play your best.
David
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If that guitar is right for you, try to negotiate it down for the cost of a refret. Totally worth it. It'll make an already great guitar much more useful.
MD
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btw, 2 pickup 175s were introduced in '53 iirc, if you get in front of the guitar check to see if it's marked ES-175 (double pickup)
It's possible there's some serial number overlap also.
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Thanks Joe ! Originally Posted by Max405
Almost from day one, on this L-7, I thought I was fighting the frets, and / or set-up, and / or strings. Then after about a year I noticed the ( original ) nut was split.....So my luthier and I started over, new nut, and 13's ...I am now certain the strings have to be 13/56's or 13/53's.......I need a little more middle feel, so JS 113's are out......But maybe I'm getting there...I can't see a re-fret, 'cause it's still too unused, but we'll see....
And for another ' smell the case ' story - -I bought my '36 L-7 from Oster's in Philadelphia, it didn't have a case, but Phil said he'd find one at least to ship it in......So he did find one and shipped it, but the case smelled so bad I couldn't even bring it in the house. It smelled like sort of a combination of an old library and opium den. So when 2 quarts of Febreeze did no good whatsoever, it went in the trash.
Of course that L-7 is my favorite, so it's all good !
Thx always Joe.
DennisLast edited by Dennis D; 08-23-2017 at 10:02 PM.
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Why mess with success? Those tiny, skinny frets came in the days of very heavy strings. The stiffer string does not need as large of a fret for a solid connection when pressing down the string. Heavy strings and tall frets are often a painful combination. With the smaller fret, the fretboard supports your fingertip. Originally Posted by Richard Luther
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Agree with Cunamara when it comes to heavy strings
I use 14-56 on my 1961 ES175D and when I had the neck rebuilt by Philippe Dubreuille in London, I asked for skinny frets. Having started music on the 'cello my left hand technique is probably "overpowerful", which with the higher medium or jumbo frets can produce some intonation issues. Those with a lighter touch probably don't have this "challenge". So for me the combination of low, skinny frets and heavy strings combination works great for pure jazz playing - just don't expect to do much bending.....Last edited by Ray175; 08-24-2017 at 04:57 AM.
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My 1952 ES-350 has original small and low frets.
It took me a while to adjust. I moved up to 13's and everything seemed to work out a lot better.
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As I am sure others more seasoned than me can attest, if an instrument does in your hands what I quoted from you above, the only thing you should change are the strings. Changing the frets, bridge, tuners, pickups, nut, etc can ruin the instruments balance/chemistry/mojo (not always but sometimes). Why take the chance? Hope you get her, put 13 gauge or heavier set on her as advised here, play and be happy with your new muse. You deserve to own an instrument that makes you feel great when playing her. Originally Posted by Richard Luther
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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Frets on my 1950 ES-125 were the same, almost non-existent. I was also reluctant for a refret since it sounded soooo good. Went for the refret anyway and ended up with a fantastic sounding AND great playing instrument! Just saying.......
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OP said the frets are not worn, so it does not need a re fret. If you can't deal with original frets on a vintage instrument, I think that's a sign that it's not the right guitar for you. Often we think we want something that we've built up in our minds to be the end all be all, only to find that what we dreamed of was not reality. This happens with all types of items and goods, tennis racquets, 67' Mustangs, Nike sneakers and bottles of Pappy Van Winkle. If you're playing music in the style that was common in 1952 on a guitar made in 1952, that guitar is perfect as it is. If you want to bend .09's up a step and a half do it on a different guitar please.
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Don't put fat frets on a classic like this one. Get a different guitar. Just sayin. You are going to hurt the value of the guitar.
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