Chorus Effect in Jazz?

[Stevebol]

My ear associates chorus with 80s pop rock. I perceive the sound as unnatural and overly electronic. Yet some people propose the use of chorus for jazz. I don't mean the Pat Metheny synth sound, since I group even that into the 80s over-processed electronic instrument category of sounds. But some people propose chorus as a an effect to add depth and warmth to the original signal. Can someone post examples of that is meant by that? Is it essentially chorus that's low enough that it's hardly noticeable?

Everything was over-the-top in the 80's. Definitely the use of chorus.
Wouldn't have had it any other way.
Dave Stewart had hair so big you could hide a VCR in there.

[rochroch]

This is a tough one.

I agree Henryrobinett that past is past, we electric guitarists could sound more contemporary and play with sounds.

But I personally just can't!

It is not about wanting to sound like an old era guitar or any theoretical reason. I can't stand chorus (nor flanger, phaser of even vibrato) in my own playing because they somehow take the dynamics away, they soften the power of the notes I try to play. And to my odd ears they spoil the melody. With any of these 'moving' effects I don't hear the composition anymore, I just hear the effect, waving and waving mechanically.

I guess I like the basic sound of a good guitar and an amp too much to color it too much. A bit of reverb is enough for me for getting ethereal feel.

But this is just me, YMMV!

IMO all of it from reverb to flange to phasers is so artificial (but perfect for Rock). Jazz requires that tone be Ultra Pure so that harmonics and harmonies stay in tune. Effects that are added to the clean sound should improve the listening experience not be a distraction. So I guess it's who one's audience is. Anything goes when it's fusion. PM usually thought of as a fusionist. What about Charlie Christian playing with a cracked speaker giving a beautiful "buzz" that is a subtle effect? Not really Overdrive. I don't think it was intentional. In the pre 60s tech was not available to lay effects on so thick of course. Perhaps use of effects in jazz git is a reaction against Polytone- itis, also known as the "Berklee College of Music jazz guitar sound": roll-off all the high and max the lows. very thick artificial sound bordering on controlled feedback. Boring to a generation raised on Jimi. JHall used it on several albums, however, when I heard him live he never used that, only for recording, it seems to me. Then of course he went all but acoustic.

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[Thumpalumpacus]

I like chorus. I've tried to wean myself. But on a gig I tend to turn it on, like a baby needing his blanky. I know it's dated and makes me sound like Stern or Sco (comments I've heard recently). But I don't mind. It's a cozy sound for me.

It can be addictive. Like many 80s rock guitarists, I went through a (pardon the punnery) chorus phase, where clean or distorted I wanted, needed that shimmer.

One of the best moves I made was when I got back into electric for a few years about ten years ago: I ran straight into the amp for three or four months straight to break the habit. Now I'm happy dropping a little chorusy syrup into the solo, or clean arpeggiated passage to fake a 12-string, but for my money, there's really nothing like a guitar plugged into a sweaty amp. If I want some faux-chorus I'll just shake the damned strings.

[whiskey02]

PLUS - I'll say this. It's also a reaction I have towards jazz guitarists who never want to leave the age old jazz guitar sound of the 50s-60s. My feeling is guitar SOUND has changed dramatically since then. Distortion, reverb, delays have become a real art form of tone. But the old and young conservative guard wants to hold everything the same and will criticize anything that steps out of the tried and true blessed by Wes and Hall tones. Drives me up the wall.

Yes "change" happens and it's sometimes good, sometimes good, but I only really care about change as it happens in regards to style within music. Swing to bebop, bebob to hard bob, post bop etc. Changes in electronics, effects, synthesizers are, compared to music, very insignificant. Keyboards, cellos, violins, horns have changed slowly over a few hundred years, often due to changes brought forth from composers who wanted to stretch the capabilities of the instruments to handle new grounds being broken in their works. Not to make a violin sound like it's coming from a spaceship. With that in mind and admitting that I do dig the old school sound, I don't dislike chorus and delay because they weren't part of the scene in the 50, 60's, but because they just sound so artificial to me. You plug a guitar into an amplifier and that's what an electric guitar sounds like. Between different guitars, amps and the volume and tone controls on each of them, there's an enormous palette of sounds available.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Dave Stewart had hair so big you could hide a VCR in there.

VHS or Beta? 'Cause Beta would be a real trick.

[yebdox]

I loved Metheny's tone from the early years, particularly the wash of sound he got live ( I might have seen him 7 or 8 times from the 70's through the 90's). Subtle or not, it was new and gorgeous. Not really cool to try to cop his tone, though, other than for academic reasons...he stands alone in so many ways.

Mike Landau had the definitive "tri-chorus" sound in the 80's and lent a beautiful shimmer to so many masterful pop and fusion tracks for so many people. It doesn't sound dated to me at all, just part of the fabric of some tunes, perfectly placed.

Allen Hinds is a guest on Jude Gold's podcast, "no Guitar is Safe" about a year ago, and gives some great examples of how he fattens his rhythm tone with a Fulltone Deja Vibe going into one side of a two amp/stereo setup, with the other signal dry. Subtle and oh so tasty, as only Allen can be.

But, some people put ketchup on EVERYTHING.

[ronjazz]

I'm raised on Wes, Johnny Smith, Jim, Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis with Peterson, Berney Kessell was a friend and mentor, so my sound, initially, was the 50s jazz sound, with a little reverb. As I heard musical styles change and the advent of digital technology, I found that some of the effects were useful. Chorus, for instance, in mono, actually puts the guitar more in tune for chord playing, as singers like a little. Lush reverbs and delays can make the guitar more orchestral, again something positive when working with singers or hornplayers as the only chordal instrument. Terje Rypdal, Frisell, Stern, Metheny and McLlaughlin manage to sound like themselves no matter what effects they are or are not using. On the other hand, Ted Greene and Ed Bickert never used more than reverb, and their sounds are lush and beautiful. I like the idea of a full palette of colors, so I use multi-effects processors and a Roland GR-55 on most gigs, bit I also play plenty of concerts on my unamplified nylon-string guitars.

[rochroch]

I'm raised on Wes, Johnny Smith, Jim, Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis with Peterson, Berney Kessell was a friend and mentor, so my sound, initially, was the 50s jazz sound, with a little reverb. As I heard musical styles change and the advent of digital technology, I found that some of the effects were useful. Chorus, for instance, in mono, actually puts the guitar more in tune for chord playing, as singers like a little. Lush reverbs and delays can make the guitar more orchestral, again something positive when working with singers or hornplayers as the only chordal instrument. Terje Rypdal, Frisell, Stern, Metheny and McLlaughlin manage to sound like themselves no matter what effects they are or are not using. On the other hand, Ted Greene and Ed Bickert never used more than reverb, and their sounds are lush and beautiful. I like the idea of a full palette of colors, so I use multi-effects processors and a Roland GR-55 on most gigs, bit I also play plenty of concerts on my unamplified nylon-string guitars.

Okay, I get using the effects with comping singers. Perhaps it's the presence of the lyric and an actor / singer that allows for more theatricality. By the way I think one of the best uses of chorus was in a Cyndi Lauper hit Time After Time. Any info re gitarist?

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[DonEsteban]

There is another instrument in Jazz that uses the "Chorus" effect all the time. Yes, one could say it is even impossible to switch it off there. It is called "The Piano". Most people got so used to it, that they don't even realize, that the sound of that instrument is defined by the chorus effect. Only when it's overdone - when the three strings per note are too much out of tune - people realize and ask a piano tuner person for help.

Same thing for guitar IMHO. Use chorus - if you want all the time - but tune it in a way people almost don't realize it is on. Or use it drastically overdone like Sco does it in recent times, more like a "Special FX" unit.

FYI: A piano without chorus effect is scarce but exists. It was called CP70, was made by Yamaha and had only one string per note. BTW most people 'd be surprised how thin and guitar-like a single string piano sounds.

From Wikipedia:
In music, a chorus effect (sometimes chorusing or chorused effect) occurs when individual sounds with approximately the same timbre, and very similar pitch converge and are perceived as one. While similar sounds coming from multiple sources can occur naturally, as in the case of a choir or string orchestra, it can also be simulated using an electronic effects unit or signal processing device.More information

More info: Chorus effect - Wikipedia

[grahambop]

There is another instrument in Jazz that uses the "Chorus" effect all the time. Yes, one could say it is even impossible to switch it off there. It is called "The Piano". Most people got so used to it, that they don't even realize, that the sound of that instrument is defined by the chorus effect. Only when it's overdone - when the three strings per note are too much out of tune - people even realize and ask a piano tuner person for help.

Good spot, of course that's correct, and so a 'honky-tonk' piano is really a piano with too much chorus effect!

The lute (with its double courses), mandolin and 12-string guitar are of course 'chorus' instruments too.

[DonEsteban]

Good spot, of course that's correct, and so a 'honky-tonk' piano is really a piano with too much chorus effect!

The lute (with its double courses), mandolin and 12-string guitar are of course 'chorus' instruments too.

Yes, and lots of these in Latin America: Tres from Puerto Rico, Charango from Argentina and so on...

The Tres is frequently used to play Montuno like ostinato motifs instead of a piano.

[John A.]

My ear associates chorus with 80s pop rock. I perceive the sound as unnatural and overly electronic. Yet some people propose the use of chorus for jazz. I don't mean the Pat Metheny synth sound, since I group even that into the 80s over-processed electronic instrument category of sounds. But some people propose chorus as a an effect to add depth and warmth to the original signal. Can someone post examples of that is meant by that? Is it essentially chorus that's low enough that it's hardly noticeable?

If your question is "what are some examples of jazz guitar with good sounding chorusing?), I think Sco and John Abercrombie are probably the best practioners. Some examples I'd cite are:

The first Marc Johnson/Bass Desires album (with Sco and Bill Frisell)
Sco's Grace Under Pressure and Still Warm albums
Miles Davis Star People (with Sco and Stern)
Lonnie Smith Afro Blue (with Abercrombie)

Some others:
Hiram Bullock on Carla Bley's Heavy Heart
Jim Hall (various things where he tried chorus, delay, loopers, and pitch-change/harmonizer effects)
Andy Summers on his Green Chimneys album (and his overall sound with the Police, though a lot of that is flanger rather than chorus)
A bunch of Steve Kahn stuff (no specific examples are coming to mind right now).

It probably bears repeating (or not ...) that Metheny's "chorus" sound (not the synth trumpet sound; the sound on stuff like Phase Dance) is not actually done with a chorus effect. Rather, he played with three amps and a complicated delay/pitch bend set-up. This creates a sort of chorusing effect in the air, rather than electronically in a box. If you ever heard him live in small venue, it was pretty amazing, but it didn't necessarily translate all that well to recordings (something he has said in interviews). I saw him live many times between '84 and the early 2000s and can testify to that. By the late 80s, he had considerably reduced the chorus-y-ness of this and gotten better at recording it, e.g., on Still Life Talking or We Live Here, which I think have great guitar sounds.

I'd also add that there's a big difference between a chorus pedal plugged into one amp and a true stereo chorus effect. I generally don't like the former (either for myself or on recordings, the above examples notwithstanding). But playing a true stereo chorus with two amps is a whole other story. I rarely actually do it because I don't like to schlep that much stuff around and/or can't get away with being that loud at home, but it's an amazing sound when you get it set up right.

John

[Rhythmisking]

That was the magic of the venerable Roland Jazz Chorus amps, a beautiful clean sound with actual real "in the air" chorus from separate amp channels with a slight delay between them. It's intoxicating when you're playing through them, but as someone above said if it sounds like the right amount when you're playing, it's probably too much; sort of wanting a 3rd martini...

I don't have a chorus (although I had has a JC amp in the past), but I do use a Strymon El Capistan (a digital tape echo emulator) which has controls to emulate the imperfections of an old tape echo, and I keep the "Wow and Flutter" set for just a slight amount, which gives a very subtle chorus effect that fattens held chords, but you don't notice it for quicker rhythm or single note melody. I do like that a lot.

[Stevebol]

I experimented with trying to get a subtle chorus effect but it didn't work for me.
Like the OP I associate chorus guitar effect with the 80's.

It never grabbed me as a guitar effect in fusion as much as it did in pop. I guess I like the extreme Police Prince chorus. It say's this in a chorus pedal!!
Don't know anything about Andy Summers gear but this seems to be more subtle;

[Stringswinger]

If your question is "what are some examples of jazz guitar with good sounding chorusing?), I think Sco and John Abercrombie are probably the best practioners. Some examples I'd cite are:

The first Marc Johnson/Bass Desires album (with Sco and Bill Frisell)
Sco's Grace Under Pressure and Still Warm albums
Miles Davis Star People (with Sco and Stern)
Lonnie Smith Afro Blue (with Abercrombie)

Some others:
Hiram Bullock on Carla Bley's Heavy Heart
Jim Hall (various things where he tried chorus, delay, loopers, and pitch-change/harmonizer effects)
Andy Summers on his Green Chimneys album (and his overall sound with the Police, though a lot of that is flanger rather than chorus)
A bunch of Steve Kahn stuff (no specific examples are coming to mind right now).

It probably bears repeating (or not ...) that Metheny's "chorus" sound (not the synth trumpet sound; the sound on stuff like Phase Dance) is not actually done with a chorus effect. Rather, he played with three amps and a complicated delay/pitch bend set-up. This creates a sort of chorusing effect in the air, rather than electronically in a box. If you ever heard him live in small venue, it was pretty amazing, but it didn't necessarily translate all that well to recordings (something he has said in interviews). I saw him live many times between '84 and the early 2000s and can testify to that. By the late 80s, he had considerably reduced the chorus-y-ness of this and gotten better at recording it, e.g., on Still Life Talking or We Live Here, which I think have great guitar sounds.

I'd also add that there's a big difference between a chorus pedal plugged into one amp and a true stereo chorus effect. I generally don't like the former (either for myself or on recordings, the above examples notwithstanding). But playing a true stereo chorus with two amps is a whole other story. I rarely actually do it because I don't like to schlep that much stuff around and/or can't get away with being that loud at home, but it's an amazing sound when you get it set up right.

John

In the mid 80's when Larry Coryell was playing with Stanley Cowell, Larry was using two Roland Jazz Chorus amps with a TC Electronics Stereo Chorus Plus pedal. I saw his show at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco (back when they had jazz there on occasion) and so loved his sound that I bought that pedal (and still have it all these years later). I have used the pedal with two amps on gigs where a "fusion" sound was called for with great results. Under the right circumstances, with the right gear, the chorus effect does have a place in the world of jazz guitar to be sure.

[Thumpalumpacus]

There is another instrument in Jazz that uses the "Chorus" effect all the time. Yes, one could say it is even impossible to switch it off there. It is called "The Piano". Most people got so used to it, that they don't even realize, that the sound of that instrument is defined by the chorus effect. Only when it's overdone - when the three strings per note are too much out of tune - people realize and ask a piano tuner person for help.

Same thing for guitar IMHO. Use chorus - if you want all the time - but tune it in a way people almost don't realize it is on. Or use it drastically overdone like Sco does it in recent times, more like a "Special FX" unit.

FYI: A piano without chorus effect is scarce but exists. It was called CP70, was made by Yamaha and had only one string per note. BTW most people 'd be surprised how thin and guitar-like a single string piano sounds.

From Wikipedia:
In music, a chorus effect (sometimes chorusing or chorused effect) occurs when individual sounds with approximately the same timbre, and very similar pitch converge and are perceived as one. While similar sounds coming from multiple sources can occur naturally, as in the case of a choir or string orchestra, it can also be simulated using an electronic effects unit or signal processing device.More information

More info: Chorus effect - Wikipedia

... and we guitarists can always pick up a 12-string for that natural chorusing.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'd also add that there's a big difference between a chorus pedal plugged into one amp and a true stereo chorus effect. I generally don't like the former (either for myself or on recordings, the above examples notwithstanding). But playing a true stereo chorus with two amps is a whole other story. I rarely actually do it because I don't like to schlep that much stuff around and/or can't get away with being that loud at home, but it's an amazing sound when you get it set up right.

John

I've done this at home plenty often -- split the signal, run one amp dry and the other wet, and it is simply beautiful, like a big warm hug from a woman you love.

[beetle_rist]

Yeah typical stern tone with stereo chorus and a tad of delay...

[entresz]

All this talk of chorus makes me miss my Roland JC-120 I stupidly sold. That was a good amp. The chorus was used very rarely. That being said it was by far the most lush sounding chorus I've heard. It was impossible to not play 80's pop songs while the chorus switch was on though.

I bought a boss CE-5 pedal as I missed that JC-120 sound. I have used that pedal maybe 6 times in the couple years I've owned it. Mainly for music theater pit orchestra work.

One effect that I love is phaser. Albert King made it sound very good.

[grandstick01]

Okay, I get using the effects with comping singers. Perhaps it's the presence of the lyric and an actor / singer that allows for more theatricality. By the way I think one of the best uses of chorus was in a Cyndi Lauper hit Time After Time. Any info re gitarist?

I think it was Eric Bazillion, from The Hooters. Rob Hyman (also from The Hooters) was the co-writer with Lauper, and sang the harmonies.


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[Ray175]

Some interesting points of view and a general consensus that we all like different things and that it's ok not to agree.

My own take is that without doubt chorus works fine in rock and pop contexts - the Police example is good but also listen to the arpeggios on Bette Davies eyes or Time after Time....
However for jazz solo work I still prefer a "clean", "pure" sound in most contexts. That said, for rythm work with a piano soloist I sometimes switch on my MXR M234 with barely perceptible impacts on delay and pitch (rate and depth), but with a boost on the bass frequencies - for me this fills out the sound a bit more a gives it some "body", giving a more "solid" foundation for the pianist.

Once again it's down to what your ears like
;-)

[oldane]

"Vocal like" is not something I've ever associated with chorus.

And yet the name "chorus" comes from the slight difference in tuning between the individial singers in a chorus, which to some made the sound more fullsome. It was an attempt to recreate that effect that was the idea behind the chorus guitar effect.

[henryrobinett]

Driving yesterday listening to my iPod on shuffle, Pat Metheny's Traveling Fast came on. I listened with this subject in mind. Brilliant playing and sound, I think. I hope to play more like that. Fast and totally relaxed. He perfectly shapes the song with his solo, playing the corners perfectly. And I loved the sound, with chorus mixed in. I don't care what anyone says. The sound of a midrangey, low mid guitar, plain, with maybe a little reverb, I hate. Boring. Holds little interest for me. Chorus, though it may be dated, I don't know and don't care, helps bring an aliveness to jazz guitar. Maybe it is the attempt to bring more voices to an otherwise monophonic sound. Overdone and 80s a lot. Yeah, sure. Technology always has the liability of dating you. So does technique like vibrato. So? One plays in the age one plays in. Regardless one will sound like one sounds in his own age.

[yebdox]

I'm with Henry - slight chorus or delay adds a fullness with that doubling/thickening and makes a thin, plain tone sound more complete to me.... Kreisberg with slight delay, of course Metheny, Robben Ford and Matt Schofield for blues players who use slight slapback to thicken things up, and of course, Holdsworths' 8 layer multitap delay (I still have 2 Magic Stomps, just because you can't do it with any other gear!).... Those tones all get me going.