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I have never played either of these brands. I hear great things but have really only experienced American built archtops.
I concede that there is no reason that they can't be outstanding values due to the lower costs of labor. But if that's true, why do new American guitars sell at all?
I'm hoping to get comments from those well experienced with European (German mostly I suppose), American and Asian builds. And I'm hoping to avoid rants of brand loyalty!Last edited by Marty Grass; 07-30-2017 at 12:53 PM.
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07-30-2017 11:39 AM
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So I owned a number of Eastmans 810CE, 805CE,803CE, JP880, El Rey 2. I liked my 810CE the best overall in terms of its actuall capabilty. I did end up installing a handmade Kent Armstrong floater. The one complaint was the finish was very delicate.
In terms of how it compared to other high end guitars it was 90% of many I tried. I did like it better than any Heritage Golden Eagle I've tried, but not as much as either my Elferink Tonemaster, or Gibson Johnny Smiths. That said the 810CE is based on Benedetto's designs being thinner tops and possibly backs as well. I prefer the thicker tops and backs in the traditional Gibson style.
There are very few archtops or even plywoods that can compete in terms of value with a Good Eastman. If $ are an issue, it's really a working musicians prayer answered!
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Eastman started as a violin company that read Bob Benedettos book and started making archtops. They always did a pretty good job of sounding good but humble beginnings as far as fret work and electronics were concerned. Mark Lacy joined as an adviser of sorts and today's Easman is a much more refined instrument. The sound is in the Benedetto camp and that may or may not appeal to you. Peerless is another company that makes a great guitar has been ghost building for many years. In my opinion neither company produces a guitar as refined as the "american" companies. That and as you mentioned brand loyalty, along with resale might be why people spend more money on the American companies. Along with the fact that much of the music of the past was recorded on the "american companies" guitars. Each of these guitars have a "signature" sound and if that works for you you get a lot of guitar for the money. In some ways the very fact that you will hear the phrase "a lot of guitar for the money" creates a stigma. I think it's tough to deny that the presence of these guitar brands have affected the worth of the more traditional brands.
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I can't comment on Peerless, I've not had much experience with them. However my encounter with Eastman goes back about 17 years when I answered an ad from a vendor I think was called New Age Strings in PA. I was in search of a 7 string after spending some time with Jimmy Bruno and was intrigued by the idea of a copy of a Benedetto 7 for low money. When it arrived it was a huge letdown. I could slide a credit card between the heel to body joint. My dog could have done a better job on the finish, which was uneven and rough. Frets were crooked in the neck. Awful. Unplayable. I contacted Gordon, the rep at the time, who was very gracious and refunded my money.
My understanding was that they hired Mark Lacey as a consultant and I watched the quality improve drastically in the next couple of years during NAMM shows. I did order a 810 7 and it was a excellent guitar for the 2K I paid for it. When I went back to 6 I was impressed enough to buy a Pisano 880 which I still gig with when my Benedetto Cremona isn't the right tool for the job. I have used that guitar on many gigs and it has one of the most comfortable necks of any instrument I've ever owned and there have been many. To me Eastmans are kind of a blank slate-no definitive "Eastman" sound like a Gibson. The build quality even on the entry level guitars I've played has been very good+. As jads stated I applaud them for building a product that would normally be out of most player's range. I also admire them for going out on a limb with products like the El Rey, the FV, etc.
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I think this Eastman sounds just as good as any other brand. But I favor a more electric sound.
I've never played one, so I cannot comment on playability or feel.
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I've played a number of Eastmans, and absolutely fell in love with a Pisano that my jamming buddy owns. It was like SierraTango describes above. I tried to buy it from him, but he won't sell it to me. He also owns a Heritage Golden Eagle, a bunch of Campellone's, Steve Anderson Emerald City, and others, so, when I visit and have the opportunity to play top shelf guitars, the Pisano is in the mix. Like I said, if he would sell it, it would be mine, and I own some pretty awesome guitars.
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Mg, you read my mind.
I was to ask about the Jazz City. Particularly the neck. Was hoping it was a little more chunky like an L5. I might need a beater that I would leave at another location.
Ive owned 2 Eastman guitars, the 371 and a 580. They were surprisingly nice guitars. Very lightweight. The necks are not rounded off at the edges like Heritage and Gibson. That negatively affects the feel to me. They were solid in a lighter wood kind of way ( if that makes any sense). The pickups sucked in both. Decent hand made guitars. I just hope the people who make them treated right...
Joe D
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I think a used Eastman 371 with a pickup swap and fretwork/setup as needed are one of the best deals going. I've owned two. One was a bit older, felt a bit rickety, and had an ugly greenish tint to the burst. I bought a 2015 in natural finish last year and it was an improvement. After fretwork, setup, and eliminating some rattling, I don't see myself parting with it. Not a bad way to spend $500.
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Well I have zero exposure to the Peerless brand.
But I've owned a lot of Eastmans, they're not Gibsons or Heritages and don't sound like them.
I've still got one of the first prototypes of the AR810 made way back when Mr Wu was their top builder - it was part of a run of about 10 AR810s made for their first NAMM show, dead copy of a Benedetto Manhattan. It's got new electronics and a very old hand built Benedetto floater (made for Benedetto back then by Kent Armstrong). I've also owned a NAMM Show AR880 Pisano, a real beauty. Owned a T146smd and a T186mx. They're all built great - the T146 had been upgraded at Jeff Hale Music with Duncan Seth Lover 4 wires, wow what a monster. The T186 had cheap pickups and it went thru the same Duncan Seth Lover transformation.
From what I gather unofficially Eastman has a shop in California that all guitars pass through, much like Ibanez has at Chesbro, where all the electronics are now installed. Eastman tumbled to the fact that better wiring harnesses, pots and recognized American brand pickups increased the cachet of their line. In other words right off the rack in a store they sound amazing.
Are they your cup of tea, I think not. But they make remarkable instruments. I've always wanted to get another AR880 or perhaps a AR380 Pisano and have Seth Lovers put in the AR380. From what I've read and heard the AR380s are built with a much lighter laminate, like the old Gibson ES175s. For a newbie wanting a good hand carved arch top many of the Eastmans are great. For someone wanting a ES175 type guitar the AR372 and AR380 might very well work for you and if you drop some Duncans or Classic 57s you'll really like them (better).
Like I said they aren't Gibson or Heritage but they're darned nice bang for the buck performers. The 2 Buck Chuck of arch tops.
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Four years ago I was in the market for a 17" hand carved archtop with strong acoustic properties. My goal was to try and keep it to $3,000 or less so that ruled out a Gibson JS. After months of playing Heritages, Peerless and Eastmans I bought a 2011 AR910cc, photo below. The craftsmanship, playability and acoustic properties are excellent. I prefer the light feel and thin top, it is a nice compliment to my 175. I have replaced the original pickup with a Kent Armstrong hand-wound 12 pole, it's nice but not a significant improvement over the original imho. I like the 25" scale and the 1.75" nut width.
I am more than pleased with the guitar and highly recommend it, however I think build dates are important when considering purchasing an Eastman and I would recommend 2009 and newer.
Last edited by ESCC; 07-31-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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We just bought a violin from a violin expert and we asked about Eastman violins. This may or may not apply to the guitars, but the violin expert said that Eastmans are made well, but the wood source is too young and there was too much water in them. He said he's seen Eastmans that the soundboards thinned down due to drying (you don't humidify violins) to the point that they sounded like a violin worth half the price five years later. On the other hand I know a luthier who recently allowed Eastman to use his design and he wouldn't sell out unless he was confident in the company.
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I will follow MG's suggestion and avoid a brand loyalty spiel!
I've owned an Eastman Jazz elite for about four years. The fret work was good but not great (particularly above fret 12).
I eventually had the neck leveled and had Jescar Gold Evo fretwire (.047/.104") installed. I also installed a Lindy Fralin Pure PAF HB and CTS pots. For a $2400 guitar, its should have been perfect, but it was not.
What I like about the guitar now:
Plays wonderfully
Very light weight
Nice tone (sounds somewhat L5'ish to me)
Very responsive spruce top
Impressive looking finish and wood binding
What I disliked (Or had to adjust to):
Did not play perfectly across the fretboard (had to have it fixed)
As Joe D Pointed out--Neck is not rounded at the edges which makes it chunky but in a cumbersome way (not a grippy way). I have adjusted to this with time but would not custom order a neck like this.
The 1.75" nut- Some really like this. Again, I've had to adjust.
Some may have been pleased with the guitar as I received it. I was not entirely satisfied. It is now a guitar I pick up regularly and play. Was it worth adding another $450 to make it something I can bond with?
Qui Chang Caine might respond with: "Who Can Say?"
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My Eastman AR503CE is twice the price of my Epiphone Broadway, but it is 10 times the value.
This is my goto guitar for practicing unplugged.
Nice, well balanced, very light.
I recently put Phosphore Bronze strings on it, and it BARKS !
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I really like my Eastman AR503 too - I bought it as a touring instrument to extend the life of my locally made custom archtop which is another dimension altogether. I have gigged with it steadily for about 4 years now so its well played in.
But my version is the CE2 - two pickups which must date from around 2013 or 2012 at the earliest pictured below. For the life of me I havent seen another one of these anywhere, there's nothing about it on the website and no info apart from the standard Ar503 blurb. I actually chose this one over the single pickup version to my own surprise because it had a darker richer tone than the single p/u version that was in the shop at the same time. Do any of you own one or have you seen one around? Im wondering if it was a limited edition - or just a model discontinued due to the common redundancy of a bridge pickup.
I have to say I almost sold it on Reverb recently due to financial/space issues but decided not to thankfully. Would have been a big mistake (not to mention the storm of lowballing).
Heres a link to the ENDED listing
Eastman AR503CE Archtop Single Cutaway Antique | Reverb
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Peerless: I have no experience.
Eastman:
- solid wood archtops are a bit thin and feedback prone, even the relatively narrow body width ones.
- laminate 371 is a great guitar with a robust acoustic tone too. I found the Pisano 175 style laminate model nice on paper but surprisingly heavy and dead feeling/sounding in my hands.
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I thought the Jazz Elite models were a Guitars N Jazz Music Store exclusive run of guitars. They had larger (Fatter )necks and Parallel bracing vs. X type bracing. These were trying to emulate older Gibsons and Epiphones of the 1940's and early 1950's. That's at least what the website claimed. Seemed like a great idea, sure like to try one someday!
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I think just about all of Eastman's set-pickup guitars have parallel bracing.
I have a handful of Eastmans. I think they're fantastic guitars and not just for the money. The only thing that really gets on my nerves about Eastman is the fragility of the finish.
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You are correct. They are only available through Guitars N Jazz, and they do have heavy parallel bracing.
Originally Posted by jads57
I thought the Jazz Elite models were a Guitars N Jazz Music Store exclusive run of guitars. They had larger (Fatter )necks and Parallel bracing vs. X type bracing. These were trying to emulate older Gibsons and Epiphones of the 1940's and early 1950's. That's at least what the website claimed. Seemed like a great idea, sure like to try one someday!
The rims are 2.5", and they are available in a 16 or 17" lower bout. Mine needed work, but I'm a little surprised they aren't more popular as they sound pretty good:
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I have mixed feelings about the Eastman brand. I think they build some great guitars, but I've also seen some clunkers.
Bang for the buck is pretty good, but the upscale-Chinese-made guitar concept doesn't work for some buyers, especially Americans who want to buy US made.
(as an aside, I met a chatty old guy in a diner last week who told me he quit eating Oreos because they're made in Mexico!)
My Eastman experience has been:
1. AR371, bought and traded off within a few months. I loved the look, and thought I could bond with the sound, but nope.
It was a well built guitar though.
2. AR380, still own and enjoy. It's not great acoustically, but the electric sound is satisfying, I think mainly because the pickups are a special Pisano model.
3. AR810ce, my most recent Eastman acquisition. A lovely guitar that I am enjoying more and more. Electronic sound is fine, but I enjoying playing it acoustically even more.
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Not a big Eastman archtop fan. They sound thin to me. Of course I've only played mid-range models and I really like all of their flat tops. So that's probably more about what I've been exposed to.
Big fan of Yunzhi and Wu. Wood, carving, finish, and sound are all good. Some are great. Hardware issues are easy to fix. For around $1K amazing everyone doesn't have a few. Thinking Yunzhi is often overlooked around here in favor of Wu because of customer service.
Why do people still buy new US made archtops? Hmm. For the most part don't think they are. I can buy an Eastman off the shelf within 50 miles of here at a brick and mortar music store but not a new Gibson.
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Had both as well as Gibsons.
peerless makes a hell of an instrument. In reality every bit as good as a Gibson. Rock solid neck, could fly all over it, never went out of tune. Had a monarch.
eastman was just a step down from the peerless, but still great for the price. The ar371 isn't at all like a 175 but should be judged on its own merit.
ive heard 10x the horror stories about Gibson than both these brands combined. In fact, I can't ever remember hearing anything bad about a peerless.
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I agree with VintageLove regarding Peerless quality. I own a Peerless Monarch 16 (only available from GnJ) and absolutely love it. As a matter of fact, I like it every bit as well as my Heritage H575 Custom.
Build quality is first rate as is "attention to detail". Playability is also top notch. She is a joy to play and an incredible value at $1400 brand new.
Although I believe that my guitar collection is complete and I don't really need any more guitars, I would very much like to own a Peerless Hardtail (ES335 clone) as well as an Imperial (a top-of-the-line 17" archtop).
Peerless makes a killer guitar at very reasonable prices.
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My Gretsch G6196T , Terada Japan, is by far the most well built guitar in my possession.
Then closely followed by my Heritage Super Eagle.
I have four Peerless gits that varies from good to very good. Got an Eastman 372 that I would rate as good.
Then my Telecaster, well, enough said, its a Tele.
From a quality verus price, Peerless are hard to beat IMO. As a lefty, even more so.
Cheers
Ted
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I've played a few Eastmans but have not pulled the trigger on one yet, most of those that I played were very nice, except one, it was (I think) an 810 and it had THE worst bent neck I have EVER seen. It put me off Eastman for a while but stuff happens and I'm still very open to owning one in the near future, most likely a 372.
I've only played two Peerless models the Wizard which was pretty nice and I own a natural antique amber Hardtail which is yet another 335 clone. As clones go it's priced a bit more than a higher end Ibanez (like an AS153) would be, but not as well appointed. No "F" hole binding, no pickguard (early ones seem to have had one) and cheapo kluson type clone tuners and a 3 piece jointed neck.
I would "think" that if Epi and Ibanez could offer the above for a lot less buckazoids that Peerless could too but it is what it is.
At any rate, the fit and finish is excellent and it's a good 8+ ounces lighter than other semi hollow models I own, maybe because the center block is mahogany not maple, and the neck is some unknown wood, not maple as the specs claim. Actually the guitar plays and sounds really nice. No need for new pups, or fret work either, someday I may replace the tuners with genuine Klusons as I don't like the mini metal buttons this one has much.
No rants, no brand loyalty... warts and all... :-)
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Peerless (like other Korean companies--Samick for instance) has been around longer than the Chinese companies and has the manufacturing process down. I have a Peerless Sunset, which is a great guitar and could easily be my only jazz guitar. The fit and finish are extraordinary, and the playability is first-rate. IMO most Korean guitars have a somewhat narrower, shallower neck than Gibsons which I find very comfortable. It is one of the lighter guitars I play--about 6.5 lbs., has a warm mellow electric sound as well as a rather loud acoustic sound.
The styling is classy--a little more blingy than Gibsons, for instance, with gold appointments, which may or may not be your cup of tea. It LOOKS like a million bucks on the bandstand. The burst is one of the nicest red bursts I've seen. The minor downsides are a typical thick poly finish, and the gold plating tarnishes more easily than others.
The pickups are Epi Classic 57's which suit this guitar just fine. I have Gibson Classic 57's in my 135, which are brighter and more versatile, but for Wes or Grant or George-style jazz, the Peerless sounds perfect.
Anyway, despite some recent price increases, I would definitely rate the Peerless as among the better bangs for the buck in archtops.
I don't have any experience with Eastmans. The ones I've played have been excellent and well made. I A/B'd a Gibbie 175 to a similar Eastman model, and found the Eastman to be bright and somewhat thin-sounding. You may or may not prefer it to the thick 175 tone, but I like the latter.
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