Beware "Refurbished" Epiphone ES-175 Premiums!

**MoCee** · 07-06-2017, 02:38 PM

Beware of the "refurbished" Epiphone ES-175 Premiums by MIRC. They really don't refurbish much and they remove the Gibson 57s and replace them with other pups, not even close to sound of the 57s or the Super 58s. I purchased a second Epi ES-175P from an online seller and it was listed as with USA Gibson 57 Classics. I knew there was something strange when I compared it to my other Epi ES-175P with USA Gibson 57s. Big difference. So I removed the strings to replace them with my personal faves and I removed the pups and had a look. Sure enough, they were definitely NOT Gibson pups, but Altec pups. So this "Premium" Epi is no premium at all. In my view, the "Premium" designation is due to the Gibson pups, but without them, you may as well buy the previous Episodes ES-175 and save a few hundred bucks (and buy some real 57s to install!). I returned the guitar immediately. I've asked other sellers to prove their 175Ps have authentic Gibson pups, but none have complied, one seller even edited his listing so it no longer states "USA Gibson Pickups," so I'm not buying any of them. This was a very disappointing experience. So, the next time you see an Epiphone ES-175 Premium listed as "Refurbished," be very careful and make sure they have a full refund and return policy. I don't know if the reseller is aware of this swap-out or not, and I was very fortunate that the seller from whom I purchased the guitar accepted my return graciously and returned my money. Good luck!

**GNAPPI** · 07-06-2017, 02:54 PM

Good post, thanks!

I don't know about Epi's but some other makers may have no warranty with "used" "seconds" or refurbished models.

**docbop** · 07-06-2017, 04:56 PM

MIRC is the people who buy guitars that would normally be destroyed by a manufacturer fixes them up strips off the serial number and sells them. They stamp various things on the back of the headstock to ID them. Some people have bought the MIRC guitars and said they got a good instrument at a very low price so worth it.

Basically they are guitars that the original manufacturer felt it would be too time consuming or costly to fix, companies like MIRC give them a way to recoup some of their cost.

So as the old saying goes you get what you pay for, buying refurbished or seconds, you're rolling the dice.

Like some of those really great deals on eBay for used Gibson they are guitars people got dumpster diving at Gibson, then they glues a couple dumpster guitars together to make one guitar. They usually put a solid color finish on to hide where the pieces were glued together. Need to check carefully inside for seams in unusual places. I haven't heard of any in awhile, but they show up now and then. A lot of scams out there have to be careful.

**rio** · 07-06-2017, 11:16 PM

That sucks. I hope that something was wrong with the pickups and that they didn't just part them out to make a buck, which would be pretty scummy.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-07-2017, 02:59 AM

I know that some of the guitars they get are seconds that didn't even get as far as having the manufacturers pups intalled yet. At that point they put on some pups during refurb, but I don't believe they are making claims they are factory originals...these are wholesaled to dealers only, perhaps some resellers are the ones giving fraudulant info?

**blille** · 07-07-2017, 03:53 AM

Fwiw, not all are shady. The one I found calls out they are altec and explains it in the description.

It should have a much bigger discount though imho.

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**boatheelmusic** · 07-07-2017, 08:38 PM

Why not just buy a GIBSON ES-175?

**docbop** · 07-07-2017, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Why not just buy a GIBSON ES-175?

about $4000 difference in price.

**feet** · 07-07-2017, 10:19 PM

i think this is standard operating procedure for this sort of thing. the electronics are harvested and replaced with something that is often inexplicably more expensive, usually seymour duncans. i've seen a lot of elitist casinos being resold with duncan antiquites, for instance. maybe they use cheaper pickups at the lower pricepoints.

**MoCee** · 07-08-2017, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Why not just buy a GIBSON ES-175?

**MoCee** · 07-08-2017, 10:04 PM

I think that it's okay to sell a refurbished as long as it's clearly stated that it's no longer a "Premium" as it now has pups that aren't USA Gibson 57 Classics. However, some of the listings I've come across are not as open about this guitars as they should be. Now the question is, do the resellers know this? If so, they should inform the potential buyer. It's no different than purchasing a Gibson, you expect it to have Gibson pickups, not Altec or any other brand. The Epiphone ES-175 Premium is a premium version because it has the USA Gibson 57 Classics, otherwise, it's just a non-premium version of the Epi 175. Additionally, the truss rod cover should be replaced with one that is blank, and does not read, "Premium." It's all too deceiving and to easy to point the finger at a wholesaler or Epiphone or somebody. At some point in the process of refurbishing these jazz boxes, someone needs to step up and say, this no longer is a Premium model. But alas, buyer beware.

**DRS** · 07-09-2017, 12:59 PM

And those 57 Classics make a huge difference.
I replaced the stock Godin neck humbucker in my Godin Montreal Premiere - an otherwise world-class guitar - with a Gibson 57 Classic and it was like night and day. I am not prone to hyperbole, either.

**furtom** · 07-10-2017, 11:35 AM

I've always been a bit suspicious of those "USA Gibson 57 Classics."

It beggars belief they are shipping genuine 57 Classics to China for these guitars. Can it possibly be true?

I personally suspect the "USA" is some sort of marketing shorthand for "USA designed/inspired/etc." and they are MIC.

Besides the inefficiency of it, we have to believe they took a $650 guitar, added $300 worth of pickups and it's now an $800 guitar? It just doesn't add up.

If anyone is sure I'm wrong (or right) I'd love to hear it!

**MoCee** · 07-10-2017, 12:37 PM

Furtom, I've considered that and have done plenty of research regards to the USA pups on the Premium and have concluded that yes, they are authentic. Unlike the Ibanez Chinese Super58s and the Japanese Super58s, there are not Chinese, (or Korean - where the guitar is made), but real USA Gibson 57 Plus Classics. Yes, they took a 650 guitar, then added value (for the consumer, about $300), but for the Epi/Gibson, the cost was about ½ that, in parts alone, as the pups needed to be installed anyways and no further cost was incurred. Did you see the video above of the guy playing both the Gibson and Epi? I've done that. I can't tell the difference either. It's just amazing.

Which brings up an issue I've considered for some time, and may be best for another thread: the idea that Gibson, with their vintage legacy and reputation, are the guitars to aspire to, and anything less than a Gibson is second-rate. This mindset is solid in older players who grew up watching their heroes play Gibsons, hence the steep rise in prices. A Gibson ES-175 can cost upwards $4000. When I play a Gibson and I play an Epi, I sound just like me. The $4000 guitar does not make me sound better. More practice makes me sound better. And unless I'm getting top dollar for my gig time, I'm not about to shell out $3000+ more for relatively the same guitar. Now some will consider my words shocking, unbelievable, ridiculous; but I don't care. As I stated, a $4000 guitar will not make me sound better, it will only give me bragging rights that I have the Gibson name on my headstock while the audience watches and listens to me play. A topic for another thread, I'm sure.

**furtom** · 07-10-2017, 09:18 PM

OK, MC, If you say it with such conviction, I can't help but believe it!

But tell me this, if I go on eBay and search "Epiphone classic 57 pickup," something like this pops up. What is it?

**MoCee** · 07-10-2017, 11:28 PM

Hey, Furtom, I've seen these and they are Epi's version of the Gibson 57s. However, the USA Classic 57+ pups look much different. They have a sticker on the back that states only 57+.

**MoCee** · 07-10-2017, 11:37 PM

Here is a thread from this site which addresses the same issue re the pups:
Gibson & Epiphone ES175 Compared

And here is the link to the Epi website:
Epiphone ES-175 Premium

It clearly states USA.

Additionally, if you compare the USA pups in the ES-175 with those from a Gibson, you'll see they are the same. I know, seems really weird, but these are the pups in my Epiphone ES-175 Premium. If I could attach a pic, I would. How the heck do I attach a pic?

**furtom** · 07-11-2017, 09:17 AM

Fantastic post! Thanks for taking the time.

I did get a chance to listen to that video, finally. I have to say, I'm convinced. The other thread you linked to has another video with similar results.

Unfortunately, I was hoping for the opposite to be true! I don't want to derail your thread, but I'm in the market for pickups, I was hoping those MIC epis were really the ones everyone was raving about.

I have a fairly cheap archtop (Hagstrom), which will benefit from a pickup upgrade, but I don't want to spend hundreds on pickups for a guitar that I got in trade for the equivalent of 250 bucks.

I've had the guitar for a while. I think it has potential, but it needs a setup and electronics.

However, with the rave reviews of this epi, I'm thinking I could just sell it and get the 175... conundrum...

**MoCee** · 07-11-2017, 05:30 PM

My first hollowbody was an Ibanez AG85. As with every hollowbody Ibby I've played, the neck was awesome, so easy to play. The build was strong and it was a great guitar. But the ACH stock pups were not very exciting. I bought the guitar for $200 w/ HSC and it was VERY clean, still had the original foam under the bridge. So I bought a set of Seymour Duncan Jazz pups. I played that guitar for over a year and then bought other hollowbodies. But to be fair, the Chinese Super 58s are really quite good, a whole lot nicer than the ACHs and other stock pups I've heard. I also had a Epi ES-339 with the ProBuckers - the Chinese S58s were hands down much better in every regard. I quickly sold the 339. If you really love the Hagrstrom and are going to keep it, an upgrade is a very good idea. Otherwise, sell and buy the Epi. Zzounds.com has some great deals and they split up the amount into 8 payments, no interest, no tax, no shipping and no credit check. I've bought several guitars through them.

**blille** · 07-11-2017, 06:10 PM

Yes. I've had the Epi 57s and currently have the Gibson 57s on the Epi es175 premium. Definitely not the same

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**neatomic** · 07-11-2017, 06:27 PM

epi, has in recent times, offered many #2's and refurbished guitars as they were closing out on a particular model..same thing happened with inspired by lennon models..as the model run was being phased out, a large number of refurbs and marked seconds (#2 on back of headstock) were suddenly available via ebay, etc etc..

nothing new!

but buyer beware

besides being potential source of actual guitar problems (no factory warranty!), also cuts resale value

cheers

**furtom** · 07-11-2017, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by MoCee

My first hollowbody was an Ibanez AG85. As with every hollowbody Ibby I've played, the neck was awesome, so easy to play. The build was strong and it was a great guitar. But the ACH stock pups were not very exciting. I bought the guitar for $200 w/ HSC and it was VERY clean, still had the original foam under the bridge. So I bought a set of Seymour Duncan Jazz pups. I played that guitar for over a year and then bought other hollowbodies. But to be fair, the Chinese Super 58s are really quite good, a whole lot nicer than the ACHs and other stock pups I've heard. I also had a Epi ES-339 with the ProBuckers - the Chinese S58s were hands down much better in every regard. I quickly sold the 339. If you really love the Hagrstrom and are going to keep it, an upgrade is a very good idea. Otherwise, sell and buy the Epi. Zzounds.com has some great deals and they split up the amount into 8 payments, no interest, no tax, no shipping and no credit check. I've bought several guitars through them.

My main guitar right now is an Ibanez semi with Super 58s. They hold their own very well. I never felt the need to change them.

And I quite agree with your earlier sentiment about overpriced guitars. I'd love a Gibson, but perhaps it's the snob in me, I feel $4k for any plywood instrument is just robbery! Just what are they charging for? Parts and materials and labor? Come on. Yes, the fit and finish should be great. Yes, I love a Gibson neck more than anyone, but those things aren't worth that amount in any universe I inhabit. When you buy an instrument, you are paying for wood. Everything else is just a manufactured part.

I want to love the Hagstrom, but I can not yet be sure what kind of guitar it can be. The setup is horrible. I can set a truss have rod and bridge ok, but it needs fret and nut work.

The pots made terrible noise at first, but they seem to be calming down, and the bridge was too high with the posts all the way down.. The pickups were not doing it and the tailpiece is, subjectively speaking, ugly.

Other than that, it was awesome.

However, the neck feels good. It also has an interesting design. It has something between a sound post and a center block. The bridge and tailpiece float as in any other archtop, but if you look inside, there's a block of wood the size of a clenched first. Never saw anything like it. Interesting to see the results.

Not much of an acoustic voice, but that's to be expected. But the block gives the guitar a density I find appealing. I also like the depth (I'd say 2.75) and width. It feels good when I hold it in my hands and lap.

I'm suspecting it can be a nice player with some TLC. But if I'm wrong and I hate it, I'd rather not have invested $400-500 in material and work!

So I'd like a cheaper pickup, or, in fact, maybe no pickup. Just do the setup first and then see what we see... I have a feeling 90 percent of what I don't like will disappear with a good setup.

I managed to set the bridge and lower the action a bit, but the nut needs to be cut -- the intonation on the bass strings are horrible. I tried to shoe horn 13s on them with terrible results.

I've haven't seen such a poor set up on a new guitar in many years. I was hoping it was a thing of the past. Alas, no.

I'm quite aware of zzounds and the 8-payment siren song. I'm trying to be disciplined, which is no fun at all.

When I was younger and had no family, I had the best guitars to play on. I was spoiled and didn't realize how good I had it. Youth is wasted on the wrong people.

Now, I've totally derailed your thread! Sorry!

**neatomic** · 07-11-2017, 08:58 PM

good stuff there furtom...but much!!! hah

as per your 4K$ pricing angst..i agree..and especially understand...but. from a pure guitar sonics point of view, you are paying for the final set-up tweaking...all guitars can be made or laid in the final set-up...a good setup can make a guitar sing...(within its capabilities!)..can also make a master craftsman guitar sound like shite!!!...set-up is an art different from actual guitarmaking lutherie (altho the best do both) ie jimmy D, elferink, etc etc (& all the greats included!)

don't mistake a bad setup for a bad guitar!! i am familiar with current hagstroms...not super top shelf set-ups, but very workable

some guitar set-up by a guy (yourself!) that loves and appreciates guitars, can make that oyster a pearl!!!

cheers

**furtom** · 07-11-2017, 10:26 PM

Hey Neatomic, wouldn't one be changing a speck of dirt or sand or something into a pearl? Just saying... Then again, the world is your oyster...

I'n not sure your point about "paying for the final set-up tweaking." I do understand that it's not economical for these budget guitars to have a full setup. And also, of course, they will be traveling across the seas by boat! But I would hope they can level the frets and design a bridge that works with the neck angle! This last is not too much to ask, certainly. I had to sand the bridge down!

But even the world's best setup is $100-200, street. Gibson, at the factory has a robot to do it! If you took a $1000 guitar and added the most meticulous setup a human can accomplish, you can still sell it for $1200. Still not getting us to $4000...

And the care and detail that Gibson puts into a Les Paul is no less than the 175, i'm sure. You can get a really good Les Paul for $1800, new. You can get any neck profile you want in that price range, plecked and awesome. That's the market.

No, Gibson charges what the market will bear and that's the end of that. Baby boomers want LP reissues, 335w and 175s too. They have the disposable income and they will pay $3-6k to recapture their youth. So Gibson charges it. They are in business to make money, more power to them if they can get it. But they won't get my money. All I'm saying.

I think the Hagstrom can be a good guitar. As I said, I feel a little something, even through the bad setup. Since my last post, I called my repairman and I'm taking it in this weekend. (Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm not up to fret leveling or cutting a nut.) Just a setup. No pickups. If I like what comes back, I can always add them later and I'll be happy as a clam (continuing the seashell motif).

Cheers to you!

**MoCee** · 07-11-2017, 10:41 PM

Furtom, thread not derailed. All is good; we're still on the topic of pups. Regards to set up, I had a rather inexpensive 12-string Fender a few years ago that played terribly. Took it in to see what could be done. I thought I'd take a gamble. When I picked it up, the tech had done such an amazing job, I was astounded. It played and sounded so much better than ever! He recommended D'Adarrio strings instead of what I had on, straightened the neck, lowered the action and it played beautifully. So I think there is much to be said about a great setup.