Gibson ES-175 vs Ibanez PM-100 vs Lawsuit 175 (Listening Test)

[rio]

It's done! The guitar info is in the description of the video but in case you guys are watching embedded, I am going to paste it here too since the info is relevant. I thought it was pretty interesting to hear - I did melody, solo and chords so we can hear all three things from the guitars.

At the end the guitars are revealed when the photos change. Each guitar change is numbered and when the picture resets that is when the guitar changes (the number titles lag behind a few seconds). There are four options but three guitars. A 2006 ES-175, which came with flats on it which is one option, the same guitar but with rounds, a 2000 Ibanez PM100 and a 1977 D'Agostino. Even though the D'Agostino looks like a 175, the internal construction is different in that it has no bracing and it has a sound post. These three guitars are the ones up front in the group photo used in the video. This was recorded with a mix of direct out and mic'ed speaker from a Henriksen Bud and all of the guitars were slightly rolled back on the volume knob (around 8) and also slightly rolled back on the tone knob (around 6-7). Enjoy! Let me know if you guessed correctly in the comments - I am very curious to hear what everyone thinks. Also, I apologize about the clipping at the beginning. It only happens for a few notes so I am leaving it as is.

[Stringswinger]

I could only guess number 1 correctly (It was my favorite and was darker than the others). The other three were too close to call.

Nice playing on the Jimmy Raney solo BTW. Your time feel and phrasing are spot on.

[medblues]

Thanks very much for your time in recording this. I felt the same way I did with Lawson Stone's L5 variants comparison video. I felt like I could produce all the difference I heard by turning the tone knob of ONE guitar. I am pretty sure the difference would be somewhat more pronounced acoustically and may or may not be heard more in a live 3D situation. This clip further tempers my GAS impulses. Much appreciated.

[rio]

I should also mention that the flats on the 175 were really dead and the rounds were just a day old - even the plain strings between those two sets sounded different on the same guitar just because of old vs. new. There are so many variables but it would have been nice to have the exact same conditions for each guitar but that just isn't possible, at least without a lot of preplanning.


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[Lobomov]

Sounds pretty similar on the recording ... I wouldn't want to have to pick them out wth a gun pointet at my head.


In real life I feel there is a big difference between flats and round, but not here. Is that because you use nickel thomastisk and I use Chromes? (never tried thomastisks as Im lazy and my local pusher dont have them behind the counter)


Btw its greatly appreciated that you do these. Ive been slightly gassing you an ES175 despite having a PM100. This vid halped put a lid on it

[rio]

Sounds pretty similar on the recording ... I wouldn't want to have to pick them out wth a gun pointet at my head.


In real life I feel there is a big difference between flats and round, but not here. Is that because you use nickel thomastisk and I use Chromes? (never tried thomastisks as Im lazy and my local pusher dont have them behind the counter)


Btw its greatly appreciated that you do these. Ive been slightly gassing you an ES175 despite having a PM100. This vid halped put a lid on it

It might be the string material. I used chromes for a while this past year - I didn't like them for over a decade and then I started liking a brighter sound and used them on my L5 for a few months. They definitely have a different sound than the TI Swings or Bensons and the TI flats and rounds do share a lot of the same characteristics compared to the Chromes.

In real life I do feel like they sound more different but it is a small difference, and it is hard to say how much of that is having a guitar in my lap, feeling them vibrate, having different levels of playability and some acoustic tone coming through. Just recording the speaker, they were even more similar than this, which is why I ended up combining that with the line out.

The D'Agostino feels and sounds the most different. The PM100 and 175 are so close - the 175 is a little beefier sounding. The acoustic sound of the guitars translate into how they sound electric and I think it might be a difference of one vs. two pickups, and also of course the pickup difference. I imagine that with the same pickups they would be indistinguishable in any real life playing circumstances.

And since you have a PM100, I should mention that although the 175 is a great player (that I will be using a lot), the PM100 neck is more comfortable to me. It is thinner but not too thin and really fast and comfortable. I met a guy on YouTube and we got to talking about the Pm100 - he said that he tried a 175 that was build very close to when Pat Metheny's was and neck was practically identical, so I guess that they copied that for the PM guitars (which makes sense if Ibanez really wanted him to switch and use their guitars).


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[Lobomov]

I met a guy on YouTube and we got to talking about the Pm100 - he said that he tried a 175 that was build very close to when Pat Metheny's was and neck was practically identical, so I guess that they copied that for the PM guitars (which makes sense if Ibanez really wanted him to switch and use their guitars).

I didn't know that, but yeah .. I like that neck as well. It is very nice .. It hits a good spot between those late 50s neck and the too small 60s neck. Only reason I see to own a ES175 is either to get that bridge pup that you never use or .. well ... just because

I also been tempted by the ES275. .... but enough about my GAS. A big congrats on your two new guitars. They're great!

So a L5 or Tal to round it all off or do you already own one? (hehe ..)

[Jim Soloway]

Pretty much the only thing I can say is that I noticed a difference between 1 and 2. it got a bit brighter. After that I had no idea. (and good job)

[vinnyv1k]

Well done Rio !

[rio]

Thanks guys! Glad to be helpful.

I didn't know that, but yeah .. I like that neck as well. It is very nice .. It hits a good spot between those late 50s neck and the too small 60s neck. Only reason I see to own a ES175 is either to get that bridge pup that you never use or .. well ... just because

I also been tempted by the ES275. .... but enough about my GAS. A big congrats on your two new guitars. They're great!

So a L5 or Tal to round it all off or do you already own one? (hehe ..)

I have a '70 L5 that is not getting played as often and is getting jealous at the moment (it is the one in the group picture behind the 175). A Tal is on my want list but I won't be getting one any time soon - I need to calm down on the purchases. I had one in college that I sold when I thought I had quit the guitar and it is definitely "the guitar that got away".


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[Dutchbopper]

They all sounded pretty identical to me. A bit muffled. EQ on the guitar and/or amp was not flat right? Did you roll off the tone knob?

Anyway, my 175 sounds a bit different with all eq flat.

DB

[jzjazz]

Hi Rio,

thanks for this nice vid. My guess was that 2 and 3 are the Gibsons, 1 and 4 PM and D'Agostino These 175 don't sound like 175 to me. This might be the case because:
- I wouldn't ever turn down the tone knob to 6-7 on such dark sounding guitars (I never do on any guitars, but especially on such dark ones)
- Henriksen is pretty dark? Not sure about the the bud, but my old 110 is darker than my Princeton, my Deluxe, my Mambo...
- Henriksen doesn't emphasize sound differences - it always sounds very good. But also always pretty "henriksen", regardless of guitar used (if there's a small difference between the guitars)

To me in Dutchboppers video the 175 sounds like a 175. From your video I liked the PM most, probably because it was so fresh and bright after the superdark first 175.

[Dutchbopper]

Hi Rio, - I wouldn't ever turn down the tone knob to 6-7 on such dark sounding guitars (I never do on any guitars, but especially on such dark ones)

Ah yes. I just reread the OP. The tone knob WAS rolled off, just like I thought. When you do that any difference in sound becomes hard to distinguish ... even impossible often.

DB

[silverfoxx]

Rio.
My guess was identical to Stringswinger's ,and I concur that the Jimmy Raney solo
is absolutely spot on also, one of several of JR's I have tried to conquer without
100% accuracy . Congratulations on the clips, really good time as Marco observes
too. More please !




Best, SF

[rio]

Hi Rio,

thanks for this nice vid. My guess was that 2 and 3 are the Gibsons, 1 and 4 PM and D'Agostino These 175 don't sound like 175 to me. This might be the case because:
- I wouldn't ever turn down the tone knob to 6-7 on such dark sounding guitars (I never do on any guitars, but especially on such dark ones)
- Henriksen is pretty dark? Not sure about the the bud, but my old 110 is darker than my Princeton, my Deluxe, my Mambo...
- Henriksen doesn't emphasize sound differences - it always sounds very good. But also always pretty "henriksen", regardless of guitar used (if there's a small difference between the guitars)

To me in Dutchboppers video the 175 sounds like a 175. From your video I liked the PM most, probably because it was so fresh and bright after the superdark first 175.

Most (not all) 175 players that I am thinking of roll off the tone a bit so I thought that would be useful - playing wide open would be a better test of the guitars for sure but not really a real life playing situation in my opinion. I like a brighter sound and in the room it is much brighter so it might be how I am recording it. The mic'ed sound was very dark. Also I could have used my Polytone since that is also used by a lot of 175 players but I don't think it would be any brighter than the Bud, and I could have used the Mustang and one of the Fender simulations but, again, I was just trying to think of something that would be the most common usage even if it is not my personal choice. I will have to play around with my recording techniques and see if I can get a better representation of the sound in the room. I do my practice and recording late at night and live in a condo so I can't unfortunately turn up the volume much. Assuming that anyone reading this far will have heard it already so I am not spoiling it, 1 was darker too because those strings were totally dead - I like old strings but these were really dead.

I guess that is the thing about there being so many variables. I would like to do this again so if it seems to be helpful then I can do one without any volume or tone rolloff. I am working though the Song Is You Grant Green solo so that might be a good candidate for a brighter sound recording comparison.


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[helios]

Great demo, really nice playing, and without the numbers as a reference, very difficult to pick them apart.

[Rob MacKillop]

Well, they all sounded great. Nice playing too.

[jzjazz]

Most (not all) 175 players that I am thinking of roll off the tone a bit so I thought that would be useful - playing wide open would be a better test of the guitars for sure but not really a real life playing situation in my opinion. I like a brighter sound and in the room it is much brighter so it might be how I am recording it. The mic'ed sound was very dark. Also I could have used my Polytone since that is also used by a lot of 175 players but I don't think it would be any brighter than the Bud, and I could have used the Mustang and one of the Fender simulations but, again, I was just trying to think of something that would be the most common usage even if it is not my personal choice. I will have to play around with my recording techniques and see if I can get a better representation of the sound in the room. I do my practice and recording late at night and live in a condo so I can't unfortunately turn up the volume much. Assuming that anyone reading this far will have heard it already so I am not spoiling it, 1 was darker too because those strings were totally dead - I like old strings but these were really dead.

I guess that is the thing about there being so many variables. I would like to do this again so if it seems to be helpful then I can do one without any volume or tone rolloff. I am working though the Song Is You Grant Green solo so that might be a good candidate for a brighter sound

For me turning down the tone knob is just losing the guitars' character. If you want a darker sound - change the pickup or the guitar, don't turn the tone knob halfway down on your 335 :-)

But that's just me.

Recording wise I would experiment with microphone placement - I noticed lately that a microphone placed 10-15 cm away from the speaker get a much brighter sound than one placed directly at the speaker. Also moving it to/from the speaker center (same distance but right/left) changes the character od the recorded sound.

But on Your case it might be the loudness over all - if you play at pretty low volumes you hear a blend of amp and acoustic. The acoustic gets lost on the recording and here we are...


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[Dutchbopper]

[QUOTE=jzjazz;781596]For me turning down the tone knob is just losing the guitars' character. If you want a darker sound - change the pickup or the guitar, don't turn the tone knob halfway down on your 335 :-)
But that's just me. /QUOTE]

Not just you. I feel the same. I hate rolling off tone knobs or even messing with EQ on my amps. I sometimes do, but I prefer not too. It changes the character of the guitar too much.

I know this guy with an L5 that rolls off the tone knob quite a bit most of the time. His guitar does not sound like much anymore and certainly not like an L5. You could get that same sound with an Ibanez Artcore using the same settings. Or any other guitar. Does not make any sense to me. I know it all depends on the situation and sometimes you have to compromise a bit but I prefer not messing too much with the tone of the guitar.

DB

[Rob MacKillop]

I find this intriguing. Most guitarists adjust their tone, often during a song. Why not? Different sounds for different moods. Your argument reminds me of the hi-fi enthusiasts who would not be seen dead with a tone control on their amp, just volume, nothing else. I can see the point with very expensive, high-quality hi-fi equipment, where you want to hear exactly what is on the recording medium, be it CD or vinyl. But I don't see the different sounds available on an electric guitar as being better or worse, just different, and a creative musician might well want to express him(her)self through those varied colours.

[Max405]

Rio,
Great job.
My old baby jumped right out at me.
Quick story.. When I 1st got your 175 I played an open mike at Sam Ash. It sounded terribly weak on the bandstand. I had to borrow a 137 to finish the show. The next day, I found a poor solder job that choked off most of the volume coming from the guitar. 2 weeks later, I brought the guitar again and it was typical ES175. Commanding, powerful and sweet. The epidemy of jazz guitar sound. Rio, You know this but I will reiterate it. There is a huge difference between recorded sound and bandstand sound. The real test will always be how it sounds when you play a guitar with a drummer and a Bass player on a stage. That is what makes Gibsons GREAT. They are proven professional grade tools for the working musician. And if you ever want to get blown away, try a Tal Farlow up on a stage. The full thickness of the Tal will amaze you.

Joe D.

[jzjazz]

I find this intriguing. Most guitarists adjust their tone, often during a song. Why not? Different sounds for different moods. Your argument reminds me of the hi-fi enthusiasts who would not be seen dead with a tone control on their amp, just volume, nothing else. I can see the point with very expensive, high-quality hi-fi equipment, where you want to hear exactly what is on the recording medium, be it CD or vinyl. But I don't see the different sounds available on an electric guitar as being better or worse, just different, and a creative musician might well want to express him(her)self through those varied colours.

Hi Rob,

not sure about the "most guitarists", I found that often young jazz guitarists do that to get a "jazz sound", but more of my guitar friends, mostly pro musicians, don't touch it :-) But you are right that there are MANY who use the tone knob. Among them Gilad Hekselman or Lage Lund - Lage was using the tone knob very frequently at a concert I was lately. But he sounded still terrific on his Schottmuller.

So I accept the use of the tone know as effect (though I find it bad sounding in most situations :-)), but I don't like what some do, e.g. my good friend and guitar player who plays jazz exclusively on a 335 and has the tone knob ALWYAS on 6-7 to make it sound jazzy. When I tell him to get a proper guitar, he always says that this one is a working horse and can also do jazz-rock, overdrive etc. Problem is that he doesn't use any other sound that the straight ahead jazz sound

But the more we play together I feel that he begins to understand it and turns it sometimes up. It then sounds like a 335, but at least it sounds like something

[Rob MacKillop]

When I said most guitarists, I wasn't restricting myself to jazz. However, I've observed many people on this forum talking about "rolling back the tone" to find "sweet spot". Most venues have a different sound, so I find it quite natural to adjust for that. But, your mileage clearly varies and there is nothing wrong with that either.

[rio]

I was recording last night just to test mic placement and I think that did have something to do with it. I backed up the mic about 3 inches but also changed where it was in front of the speaker by a few inches because as I was thinking about it and why the recording was darker than what I heard in the room, I didn't account for the tweeter when I was doing this. I think that on this recording I didn't get any of the tweeter sound from the Bud. Same guitar settings and the 175 sounded much brighter - not too bright but not as dark as here. I do have to disagree that the character of the guitar is lost here though, even though it is on the darker side. I know what you mean about rolling the tone down with younger guitarists but I think of rolling it all the way down, or most of the way down, because that is the advice they get from guitar magazines etc. But still, like it was said above, I do think that has its place because ultimately it is personal choice - I mean Pat Metheny rolled off the tone of his 175 pretty far and I seem to remember Jim Hall being said to do so as well. Lots of other guitarists too. That's just getting into personal preferences though and there isn't really any one right way to do it - one of the things I love about jazz guitar is that there are so many different tone options.

Joe, yeah "strong" is a good word to describe the tone of this guitar. I can't wait to play it with drums. I have an organ trio that gets together to jam every so often and that is always a great guitar test because how a guitar fits in in that context teaches me a lot, so I'm looking forward to that. I have a lot of duo gigs the next few weekends so I don't know when I'm going to get to meet with those guys next but I am looking forward to it because I bet it is going to sound awesome. I used this weekend for a duo gig though and it sounded good there so no complaints so far. When I was younger, in college, I had a Tal. I thought that my memory of it, being so long ago, idealized the sound and how good it was but reading everyone's opinions of it here supports what I remember about it. Someday I'll get another one...I switched to double bass second year in college and quit guitar for a number of years...sold the Tal to be able to buy a nice bass bow. I still have the bow but I sure do miss that Tal.


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[Dutchbopper]

That's just getting into personal preferences though and there isn't really any one right way to do it - one of the things I love about jazz guitar is that there are so many different tone options.

But surely if people don't hear any differences between your guitars, does that not bother you? I'd hate it if my Tal sounded like my 175 ... Or my 125. Or my Kessel.

DB