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I recently bought this Epiphone on eBay. I bought it solely for the uniqueness of it and I love everything about how it looks. It has a piezo w/ preamp. I don't know how well it will do providing jazz tones.. the piezo. Maybe it can? .... I have seen a few flat tops with a humbucker in the sound hole. I am wondering if I could somehow install a '57 or p90 without putting holes in the top and equipping it with flatwounds and maybe an aftermarket ebony or rosewood saddle if they even make that for flat tops... Im in love with the look of the guitar and I really wanna convert it into a jazz box so I can use it in jazz band at school and not just at home practicing. Can anyone give me some advice?Last edited by daniel52587; 05-29-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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05-29-2017 10:43 PM
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Jazz isn't about a timbre it's a approach, a way to playing music, just play the guitar and enjoy the music.
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Well daniel52587, a common mistake that's too often made is thinking that jazz is about the instrument, or the brand, or the adoration of icons, or the blind and rote assimilation of some notion of extrinsic romantic "hipness". Yes, while it's true that the traditional sound of jazz is based on a horn sound (Charlie Christian's sound was so like a tenor sax, people mistook him for players like Lester when they first heard him), it's about a sound you love. John McLaughlin loved Django, that love has taken him through many guitars; it's the love of sound and not equipment.
That being said, the humbucker sound is one option. Sure you can find a humbucker to mount in the soundhole. It works well. Bill Lawrence made one, DiMarzio did, Duncan did. I think there's a Shadow and a Fishman that has a combo.
I guess you could use flatwounds but they tend to be stiffer near the string anchor. Maybe half wounds might be a better bet. The LaBella ground wounds tend to be a little darker than the D'Adarrio half rounds but I've used both with success.
These will undoubtedly get a different sound, especially amplified, from your guitar. Whether it sounds like jazz or not, is very much a matter of musical content, the string/pick/finger relationship and what note choices you make. I've heard all sorts of guitars, including my nylon classical, sound absolutely gorgeously rich and jazzy. It's in the hands, and don't let anyone tell you that's a lie.
docbop is right. It's also true that with a flat top, you'll have to make more adaptive work to be convincing. But jazz is about making your own mark; truly it is. And the sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll get out of the shadow and mystique that keeps many from knowing the music. You don't need a Gibson L-5. I've seen a guy play a $99 Hohner that would make anyone cry. Because it was about the music.
DavidLast edited by TH; 05-30-2017 at 06:12 AM.
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I would check out Vintage Vibe Guitar pickups by Pete Biltoft. (vintagevibeguitars.com) He can make any kind of a pickup you want that will give you the exact sound you want, and build a custom mount that will fit your roundhole guitar. I have a "CCRider" pickup that is a Charlie Christian-looking pickup. When I ordered it I spent a good amount of time talking to Mr. Biltoft until he was sure exactly what I wanted, and he built the exact pickup for that. Plus his pickups have a unique interchangeable magnet that that you can change in just a few seconds, and each pickup ships with two different magnets so you can experiment with them.
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There are a number of acoustic pickups to check out.
Choosing the Right Pickup For Your Acoustic Guitar | Reverb
Gabor Szabo used flat tops for great jazz. He'd stick a pickup in the soundhole of a Martin or simply use a piezo equipped Ovation.
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The easiest way to convert it into a jazz box: play jazz on it.
But the piezo is likely not going to give you the preferred sound, so I would do as already suggested: mount a magnetic pickup into the soundhole (and slap some flatwounds onto it). Myself I would be tempted to fabricate a brace or bracket to mount a regular humbucker - say a Classic 57 or so - into the soundhole. Or a nice P90.
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My favorite flattop conversion is the one owned by the late, great, J.J. Cale. It was a Harmony he bought for $50 or so and the back got smashed in. So he added some pickups (more than two) and controls. I don't have photos of it but you can Google it and there's a wonderful video on Youtube of his studio session in L.A. in the '80's, if I recall, with Leon Russell on the organ. J.J. plays that Harmony for several cuts.
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Yeah, piezos...its a very particular sound, and if you're listening to old jazz records, you're not hearing that sound.
I might recommend a soundhole pickup-- the cheap "Bill Lawrence" soundhole pickup. It's a lousy pickup as far as getting an acoustic sound. But it can make acoustic sound like an electric guitar plugged in quite well!
Amazon.com: Bill Lawrence A245C Acoustic Guitar Soundhole Pickup Black: Musical Instruments
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String it with steel and get a magnetic soundhole pickup.
Piezo will never get you to jazzbox territory
Apart from the sound itself, the pressure -> voltage is exponential. Play twice as hard with a magnetic pickup and you'll create twice the voltage. A piezo will create 4 times the voltage from doubled pressure...good luck without a compressor 
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Tommy Emmanuel gets a pretty good jazz sound from a flat top:
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Tommy sounds great. But it's not a electric jazzbox sound, which is what the OP wants.
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Is there a good reason why no one has suggested a floating mini humbucker? A couple of chaps have suggested flatwounds or semi flats in a heavier gauge but what about the glued on stop bridge, it could just break away as I have seen these glued after finishing so the bond is not at it's best and even if it holds the top could possibly distort. It would not be a big job to fit a tailpiece (low angle) and the peg holes could be filled with a hard wax or coloured shellac, both available from antique furniture restorers. Nice looking guitar, hopefully and mod's will not detract. Good luck with the project, nice to see the boundary's being pushed.
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I hesitate to recommend a floating mini bucker as there would need to be some pretty serious work to mount it--there's not enough fretboard edge to mount a bracket.
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I immediately thought of Gabor Szabo (mentioned above) and Lenny Breau.
Breau played lots of different guitars--including a Hagstrom solid body (below). In the 60s, he performed with a Gibson flattop equipped with a soundhole mic. In the 70s, he used a Gibson Mark series guitar (also with a soundhole mic):
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Interesting! That flattop in the middle pic appears to be a 12 string too. Lenny, coming from a country background, must have also felt very comfortable with a flattop.
Originally Posted by Greentone
I immediately thought of Gabor Szabo (mentioned above) and Lenny Breau.
Breau played lots of different guitars--including a Hagstrom solid body (below). In the 60s, he performed with a Gibson flattop equipped with a soundhole mic. In the 70s, he used a Gibson Mark series guitar (also with a soundhole mic):
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Breau was a very interesting guitarist. Musically, he was an amalgamation of some really interesting influences. Way more jazzy than, say, Jerry Reed, but with a lot of those influences. If you pushed Chet Atkins into a Tal Farlow sausage casing and added some avant garde spices to the mixture, you'd just about come up with Lenny Breau as the finished product, IMO.
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I think flattop jazz sounds terrific, just not the same as archtop tone.
Piezo electronics can be OK, but my experience is that the LR Baggs system on my Gibsons gives a much better jazz tone than the Fishman system. One approach that helps is don't use an acoustic amp. Instead, plug into a tube amp and use a little drive from a dirt pedal in front. Works great, and you don't have to mess up your guitar.
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We are living in the Golden age of good quality affordable instruments. If you want and electric jazzbox on the cheap your only problem is taht you have too many choices:
ibanez af guitar | eBay
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Originally Posted by Socraticaster
no opinion on the flattop but that clip made my day, thanks Socraticaster !
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I can never get enough of those Fats Waller tunes. What a fun rendition. Originally Posted by Socraticaster
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I see a lot of great advice above. But job #1 is to describe the qualities you want to get out of the instrument: e.g., the tone and attack, decay, sustain properties. Then people can tell you if any solution is likely to come close. Originally Posted by daniel52587
I'd also suggest looking for players on youtube who have managed to get the sort of tone you're looking for from a similar instrument. If you can't find any, that may give you a clue.
Also, make sure you thoroughly explore the tonal range of that instrument as-is before modifying it. It's never going to sound like an archtop, but I'll bet there are some cool tones in it. Flat tops tend to be bright, so you might try less bright strings such as monel.
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Daniel, Thomastic do flatwound bronze acoustic strings. I believe the G string is wound.
Now how will this help a piezo equipped pickup? Hmmm, no finger squeak for a start.
Or......
In action....
I think Mr Lennon had monel tapewound string on that guitar.
And even......
Mr Burrell is using a microphone but the guitar appears to have flatwounds.
The guitar you have looks unique so don't butcher it.
Good luck
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You've gotten some great advice on the pickup, I have nothing to add, but I do have a suggestion for strings. I use the D'Addario EJ21 jazz lights on all of my archtops. They're cheap (I used to use Thomastik rounds at $18/set!) and they'll work great with either the piezo or magnetic pickups (bronze strings don't come through well on mag pickups). They're roundwound but I get a great sound from them. I like a brighter jazz tone than most people, my #1 doesn't even have a tone control, I'm not a fan of that traditional dark sound.
Anyway, here's a link to the strings:
D'Addario EJ21 Electric Guitar Strings Jazz Light .012 - .052
Good luck and please report back if you get a pickup, I'd like to see/hear how that works for you.
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I'm pretty sure EQ can do the job. Turn the treble down, turn middle and bass up.
When archtop guitars were very rare (90's) and expensive, I've seen a lot of guitarists playing on flat top guitars.
Maybe on an amp made for electric guitars, it can be nice. Just try.
It was OK, that wasn't disturbing.
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