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I am an older (late 60's) guy and have been playing for a year now after a 30 year layoff from guitar. I evenly split my time between my classical and archtop jazz guitar (both from a repertoire and time spent perspective). I play strictly fingerstyle (I think I own a single guitar pick and I might even be able to find it if you gave me a couple minutes to search). And I just play for myself and/or the occasional highly tolerant family members.
I have a pretty nice Jesus Marzal (luthier) classical (which I really like) and a mid 70's ES-175D. I play a number of arrangements that just don't work on the classical and didn't like the fact that this meant that these could only be played through an amp (the 175D is not much of an acoustic instrument). So I bought a used (2016) Eastman AR905CE to address this issue.
I really like how the Eastman plays (in particular I like the slightly wider nut vs the 175D and the Eastman somehow 'just fits' my hands). Note that I hold both guitars "classical style" off my left knee and anything larger than 16 inches is not going to be comfortable for me. The Eastman has a somewhat different amplified sound vs. the 175D but that is fine and I like that sound (but not necessarily better than the 175D). However, I have not yet bonded with the acoustic sound of the Eastman although it is hardly a turn-off and I would guess many would find quite nice.
I think that somehow the change in tone from my classical is just too much for me. I am still experimenting with strings and there might well be answer here as the sound that I am getting does not sound like "poor quality stuff". I don't want to give up a ton of volume, but 'a bit less brassy' would be my choice. From a string perspective the best that I have found is the Labella Jazz Tape's (0.14) but the bass seems really dull to me (I know - I was just complaining about the opposite).
I live in a small place where opportunities to try stuff out is not much. So a bit of travel is going to be required to see anything useful. And that is my question. It isn't what should I buy. It is what should I be looking for to try out. The relevant parameters
1) 16 inches or smaller
2) 1 3/4" nut or larger (lots of instruments are now off the list)
3) Playable either amped or acoustically
4) A somewhat warmer acoustic tone vs. what I am now experiencing (which is not bad or unacceptable - I just haven't bonded yet with what I have and that could well change)
5) I would be willing to spend up to $2.5K on top of whatever value I could get from my mint condition AR905CE.
So what kind of instrument might be worth a long drive for a try-out? Thanks for the help.
dave
ps. A nylon string cross-over is an interesting option but not what I am really after at this point.Last edited by DaveLeeNC; 05-20-2017 at 07:11 PM.
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05-20-2017 07:08 PM
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I think you have plenty of guitar. The Eastman will give you a nice acoustic archtop sound, and--as you noted--the neck is a pleasure to move over to from a classical. (I have three classical guitars; I started out on the classical. A wide neck is most comfortable for me.)
You might want to experiment a bit more with strings. First, listen to this:
Millions of people thought that guitarist Grady Martin recorded the guitar lines on a nylon string guitar. Actually, he used an Epiphone archtop. You can get a sound that is closer to a nylon than to a flattop steel string with the archtop. It's a matter of string selection, instrument, and technique. (Both the archtop and the classical guitar have a sharp attack and relatively quick decay on the strings, with a big fundamental pitch, compared with flattop guitars--that ring and jangle, by comparison.)
If you haven't tried Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Bebop Roundwound strings, you might find that they are just about the best string for archtop guitars. They provide plenty of volume, yet don't sound jangly in the least.
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Sadowsky Jim Hall fits your criteria. They are laminate but have a pretty nice acoustic sound (I would not usually ever say that except that it is true in this case) and have a 1 3/4" nut. Price could be attainable depending on how much you get for the Eastman. The thing is though that the Eastman's resale value is notoriously low compared to other brands.
Which brings me to my next point - you might want to keep trying different strings on the Eastman. I have an 805ce and some strings can sound very bright. Have you tried any nickel strings like Newtone or Thomastik Bebops? They are double wound with pure nickel and have a clear sound but are warmer than other rounds. Also I have found that half rounds work very nicely on the Eastman. You also might like the Thomastiks because the gauges of the wrapped strings are lighter, if you are wanting tension that is closer to what you get with nylon strings. The other thing is that the more I played it, the better it sounded. It is very well made and I think it just needed time to open up, but string choices can really make a significant difference on these guitars. Also, .014s never sounded as good on my Eastman as .012 or .013s. I have used .014s on all of my other archtops and am used to them and how they sound but on the 805ce I think that the extra tension did not let the guitar vibrate as freely as it could. Right now I have .013 D'Addario half rounds on and it sounds nice to me, but I will be putting .012 Bebops on again as soon as this set reaches the end of its life. The low string gets a little thumpy with the half rounds - which I like but you may not based on what you said about the tape wounds. I do not find tape wounds to be a good match for the Eastman btw, but that is just me.
Paul
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Be careful if you try the TI Bebops. You would not be the first person to be surprised that the 12 set has a plain string. Most people find the 13 set to be comfortable as the wound strings are very flexible when compared to similar gauges from other manufacturers.
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+1 what Danielle said. I'd use the 13 set.
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Oh yeah - I have a stockpile of .021 flatwound TI strings just because of that damn plain 3rd string. I like the gauges of the 12 set on my longer scale necks and it is maddening that they have that plain 3rd string. But having a .021 flat 3rd sounds nice so it lets me just order single strings if I have time to wait or a set same day of Amazon and use my stockpile if I need them right away.
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I actually can't imagine anything worse string wise than a plain G that thick.
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Thanks for all the very helpful comments. And I will agree that it was far from clear to me that this was really a guitar issue. The Eastman that I own seems to me to be a high quality instrument. While I would still be interested in 'other instrument comments', I think that I will continue the string experiment that I abandoned a bit back. And next on the list is the set of (13's) TI Bebops unopened on my 'music stuff' shelf.
dave
ps. Very interesting info regarding the El Paso recording.
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between the Es175 and the AR905, I expect you have your bases well covered as far as quality jazz oriented archtops go. Perhaps your tone concerns are more related to technique -- as in classical style not quite being the same for jazz tones on an archtop? This is not a critique, only an observation. Fingerstyle with nails certainly is a bright tone. I have played fingerstyle jazz for quite a while now but with flesh of the fingertip as opposed to nails. My string preference is for roundwounds. Recently, I have been adding plectrum into my approach. Maybe classical nails need to be considered?
One more thought . . . perhaps there is an amp in the tone equation?
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Unless you want to spend more $$ you have what you really need already! Carved Tops like your Eastman 905 have way more acoustic quality too them than their laminate cousins. Gibson offers an ES-275 which might fit your laminate needs!
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FWIW, I considered playing the archtops without nails - primarily by using Alaska Pik's with the classical and flesh only on the archtops. I am opposed to just flesh on my classical, although there are some guitarists far better than me who make this work. I can imagine ending up at that point, but it isn't my preference from a playing perspective as the flesh only technique (as I experience it) is a good bit different and I would prefer not to deal with that difference plus I strongly prefer nails over Alaska Pik's anyway.
dave
ps. In the spirit of full disclosure my nails have the strength of old egg shells. So when I say nails it is actually either ping pong balls or superglue and tissue reinforced nails. The flesh and Alaska Pik plan would fix that.
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There's an old interview with William Ackerman, excellent fingerstyle guitarist and found of Windham Hill records, where he "admits" he goes to a Vietnamese nail salon for glue-on nails on a regular basis.
I play mainly jazz, started out on nylon string and still go back to it every now and then, but I keep my nails. Drives my GF crazy--4 long fingernails, the rest cut short. I like just a little nail protruding beyond the fingertip, and so I usually hit the string first very lightly with the flesh, then the nail. If I want to, I can "dig in" with the nails for a more forceful, brighter attack--I think of it as clawhammer guitar.
I have average nails and *almost* never break them because I keep them a reasonable length and try not to do things that will break them. For instance, no frisbee or catch football. I always reach for doorknobs, car door latches and even toilet seats with my left hand.
I play about 50% pick, 50% fingers--pick for soloing, fingers for comping--on the steel strings.
Re' strings I like D'Addario jazz lights flats, but have a couple of guits strung with DA Pure Nickel rounds, which is sorta bright but in a mellow way. I got some TI Jazz swings recently that I posted about because they seemed to tarnish quickly, but mysteriously after a little cleaning the tarnish is gone. I like the sound but will probably just stick with DA flats, as they sound good to me, last a long time, are fairly cheap, and readily available.
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BTW I tried those Alaska Piks and didn't like them at all--very unnatural feeling for me. Same for thumbpicks, steel pics for dobro, etc.
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Funny. I play Dobro (square neck with bar). Thumbpick and metal fingerpicks on the Dobro feels perfectly natural, and gets the tone you really seek. Other arrangements, including the Tut Taylor flatpick, just don't cut it, for me.
Now, you try to translate those picks over to the guitar--archtop, flattop, etc.--and it is really clunky. For some reason, I get caught up in the strings, when I _don't_ with the Dobro.
I haven't analyzed it, but I know it's so from decades of playing. It isn't positional because I don't have any problem with the same picks on a banjo.
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When I had nails I went to a nail salon too. Those nails sounded great for jazz - they were thicker and could be beveled like a pick. A really good option for classical and jazz but nothing sounds better than flesh on a bass so no nails for me.
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The thing that I disliked the most about the Alaska Pik's is that they are very hard to shape. It reminds me of trying to sand chewing gum or maybe latex paint. I just could not get that 'perfectly round' shape that I sensed would work best. And they are somewhat clunky although I think I could adjust to that.
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
dave
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-1 on the Alaska Picks. They are wide! Wearing three meant that my fingers were forced apart in an unnatural way and they kept bumping into each other. Tried them for two or three days and had to throw them away.
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Just a follow-up here. The Labella tapewounds are now gone and replaced with TI Bebop's (13's). We'll see how they 'settle in' (mostly how I perceive them over time). At first I really like the tapewounds, but after a while the lack of bass response got more and more irritating.
One thing that does help WRT to what I want acoustically is to move my 'picking position' (fingerstyle) a bit toward the neck vs. where I usually place it on my classical.
I would still be interested in input regarding just exactly what to look for in 'archtop specs' (or specific models) if the goal is to get a softer (less brassy) and more mellow tone. I am hardly committed to spending money to achieve what I think I am after (and I am far from convinced that 'it is out there'). But rather than just reading what other (better informed than I) folks think, I would like to "see/hear for myself". But that will inevitably involve some travel and I am trying to better target any "guitar trips" I might take.
Thanks.
dave
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Dave, I would give Barrett Brooks a call at Sound Pure in Durham which isn't that far from you and tell him what you are looking for and he can arrange to get a few guitars which might suit your ears and hands. I have purchased two guitars through Soundpure the most recent being my Custom Shop Eastman ElRey4 and found them great to deal with. They also have a couple of nice Buscarino's in stock to guide as a guide post or reference point if you will.
I also play fingerstyle and I place my fingers about 1 1/2 below the end of the neck when I play my electric guitars. Which as you noted is much different from a traditional classical guitar placement. I want that warmer tone one gets farther up the neck.
For my archtop I use TI flats 11 gauge for bass and use a 12 or 13 sets TI treble set with a .21 wound third. I change the treble set about two/three times for every bass set.
Barrett Brooks
Acoustic & Archtop Guitar Expert
TEL: 919-682-5552
www.SoundPure.com
www.SoundPureStudios.comLast edited by rob taft; 05-29-2017 at 04:20 PM.
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Rob - good advice that I will probably take at some point. Thanks.
dave
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Dave. I am a classical fingerstyle player who now plays archtops in fingerstyle. I strongly recommend you a 25,5 scale length guitar. And if possible a carved instrument. L-5 style or Super400. If the guitar is not top big for you, you will feel comfortable with the strings response to your action. A big nut size is also very good for your skills.
I use 12 roundwound. And feel very glad with them.
Regards.
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