Guitar Action & Intonation

[BFrench]

I have an Eastman archtop with a floating bridge. I need to lower the action, may be my old tired hands but I'm having a hard time making my chords cleanly. Single note isn't really a problem. It's 100 miles either way to find a tech but I'm thinking if I lower my bridge then my intonation will be off and I'm not wanting to have to get into moving the bridge to adjust the intonation.

I probably already know the answer but asking anyway. I don't mind doing this on my electric's as I can then just adjust the saddle inserts but having to actually move the bridge, re-tune, check intonation and repeat until correct is going to be a PITA.

[Jx30510]

Strangely I find very good intonation on wood bridges very easily..I just go for it and move de bridge a bit by luck and trial and get there really fast by ear.
I always put some masking tape to mark where the bridge is before starting.
But it has always been a 3 minutes affair.
Maybe I'm lucky,( or have a bad ear and don't realize I'm completely off.. but I don't think so, I hear unmistakebly a bad tuned guitar)
I'd take the risk of doing it if I where you
good luck!

[DanielleOM]

I find with those Eastman bridges, some string sets seem to intonate much better than others.

Some that have worked well are: TI Bebop 13, TI Swing 12, D'addario chrome 11.

[Matt Cushman]

Lowering the action should improve intonation. Intonation problems can often be traced to high action, particularly high action at the nut.

[BFrench]

Ha Matt, now that's what I like hearing

[Matt Cushman]

Ha Matt, now that's what I like hearing

You may have to move your bridge if you lower your action. Moving the bridge is easy enough, as Jx30510 points out in his post.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Lowering the action should improve intonation. Intonation problems can often be traced to high action, particularly high action at the nut.

If the guitar was intonated with a high action, lowering the action will send the intonation flat.

OP, set your action first, and then intonate, never the reverse.

[Woody Sound]

It is simple to adjust the bridge for intonation. If I am doing it during a string change I install the 2 E strings and do it, then add the rest.

[BFrench]

So you just leave the high-low E, remove the rest and intonate?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yes.

[Woody Sound]

So you just leave the high-low E, remove the rest and intonate?

Well of course if you are not doing a string change, just loosen the middle ones enough so that you can move the bridge.

[goldenwave77]

Not a big deal. Just play around with it, as suggested. Probably 15-20 minutes, at most, vs. 3 hrs. driving and 7 gallons of gas.

[Jabberwocky]

FRETS.COM

[sgosnell]

You do need a good tuner to get the intonation as close as possible. You can do it by ear, but that can be problematic. A decent strobe tuner is a good investment. Peterson has a software strobe that runs on smartphones and works pretty well. I also got one of their Pitchgrabbers, which attaches to the guitar - headstock or wherever is convenient - and plugs into the headphone jack of the phone. That allows tuning without amplification, which can be problematic with a very quiet guitar, and the mic on the phone may not be that good.

[Jimmy Mack]

Don't be afraid, you won't harm anything. But follow the great advice given in this thread.

You will: fix your intonation problems, achieve better action, and learn a few things about the guitar, and maybe fine-tune your abilities.
All good things, no?

BTW, lowering your bridge won't adversely affect intonation. A too-high nut, and too high frets, can. I have had nuts lowered, and have filed frets down because of pain in the fingertips, and the harder action they caused.

[rlrhett]

FWIW Intonation is easy to fix on an archtop with a wood saddle. You don't need to take strings off (although that might make things a little easier) All you need is a good tuner. I use iStroboSoft for my iPhone, but there are literally dozens.

1) Tune your guitar.
2) Hold it like you were going to play it.
3) Sound a 12th note harmonic on 6th. It doesn't matter if it isn't perfectly in tune. Just make note of the Hz.
4) Fret the 12th fret like you were playing. Note the Hz. They should match.
5) If the fretted note is sharp push the bridge back towards the tailpiece. We are talking a 32nd of an inch or less (mm). A tiny shift.
6) Check again.
7) If flat, push the bridge towards the nut.
8) Repeat until fretted note matches the harmonic.
9) Mark the bridge location under the 6th string with tape or pencil or whatever you are comfortable with.
10) Do the same with the 1st string. Try not to move the location of the saddle under the 6th string as you adjust for the 1st.

You can try to fine tune the in between strings by sanding the wood saddle, but that is very advanced and easy to screw up. Unless you are an intonation freak, you should be fine with just the two outside strings.

[viccortes285]

BFrench 1) make sure your neck is straight.
2) adjustment of Truss rod if needed.
3) depends how low you want it (? Filing or buying new nut with deeper groves.
4) string the low E first and work it down to high E string.
5) tune up and stretched up each string about 3 times.
6) buy a strobe tuner and do your intornation retune.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Alter]

i just spent an hour or so doing all this on my elferink since i changed the string gauge and type. I follow these steps.

1. proper relief via truss rod adjustment. Watch a video its easy to do, make sure the neck is right before working on the bridge. I like a little relief but some people prefer a more straight neck. Careful with the truss rod, small movements.
2. i leave the strings on, just loosen them. I use the two E strings to check intonation on the 12 fret, if fretted note is high move the bridge back, if low move it forwards towards the nut. Tune the E strings, check, repeat. Its ok if the bridge is a little sideways. Also check that the strings align to the pickups polepieces and you havent moved the bridge up or down by mistake.
3. work on string height, individual saddles or two screws depending on what bridge you got
4, adjust pickup polepieces to taste.

if the guitar was without tension for a while, let it settle a bit before finalizing work. No tech can match your touch on the strings so for me its very much worth it to learn to do it yourself.

[m_d]

How is the nut? I ask because you say some chords are difficult to fret, and of my two Eastmans, the archtop came perfectly setup (done professionally through the dealer as part of the deal), the semi-hollow needed the nut lowered and it made a HUGE difference in terms of fretting facility. Both can get to super low action without a buzz - just know your Eastman likely has that "potential".

At one time, based on what I often read on the Web about how easy it is to set up one's guitars and save some bucks, I was inclined to do some things myself. The problem is, some things are easy to do, some require experience and finesse, and it's easy to cross that fine line and overestimate one's abilities. Setting the intonation on an archtop definitely falls into the "doable" category. Gather all the information, take your time and you can do no wrong. But lowering a nut? No way. Even trussrod adjustments can be delicate. My experience with techs/luthiers is that they are like doctors, some are average, some are worse, some are good professionals, and some can work the kind of magic the average hobbyist won't be able to touch, Internet wisdom be damned. Based on personal experience, I wouldn't let a 100-mile drive dissuade me, if I felt a trip to the tech was necessary.

[Jx30510]

I agree with that statement if you want the nut to be changed.
Each time I had a bone nut hand made by my luthier, with a fret dress if needed, the playability and consistence in note definition was improved in a spectacular way..
That is a very different process than just working on the bridge intonnation.
If you feel you want to go that way, new nut, fret dress, overall set up, and that you are sure the luthier is Ok, then a drive is a 100% benefic in my opinion.. but it will cost you some money and you will have to wait for the job to be done (obviously you'll have to come back).
But it will be worth it, no doubt

[Socalbill]

Hmmm. For those who use the two "E"s for intonation but tune down the other strings; Doesn't tuning down release the tension on the neck and allow it to flatten? You intonate like that and then tension and move the neck, I'm thinking your intonation might be out again. I'd say keep the guitar in tune, neck adjusted and all that, then intonate the "e"s. Just a thought, and a question I guess.
Bill

[ptchristopher3]

Hmmm. [...] I'd say keep the guitar in tune, neck adjusted and all that, then intonate the "e"s. Just a thought, and a question I guess.
Bill

Hi Bill,

In my opinion:

1. Yes do not do all sorts of weird things. Rather as you suggest - tune up to pitch, use all strings. Do not stand on one foot with a palm frond in you left ear, etc.. Get your guitar as it will be when playing. Do not lay it face up on a bench. Hold it as you will when playing.

2. It is classic, and also almost always sub-optimal to set the bridge for the E string notes at the 12th fret.

But close enough usually.

Strings are imperfect, as are fret crowns. So setting the bridge only for the two E's and only at the 12th fret can result in overall errors.

And more random near-thoughts,...

I am assuming a wound G string set, as most here seem to use.

Sharp notes up the FB are often more troubling than slightly flat ones. Optimizing for the High E will often leave you with a slightly sharp B as you play up the FB.

IF you use a wound G, as most of us here do - I suggest first making a ROUGH position setting by moving the bridge until they 12th fret notes on the A and B strings are one octave above the open notes on the A and B strings. Forget the harmonics. Get a good tuner on your phone or get the Peterson Strobo-Clip, which is far better than any other clip-on I have tried.

Now start checking notes on ALL strings. The idea is to look for a "best fit" bridge position. Do not accept the rough position as optimal - although it will often be remarkably close to optimal.

Notes below the 7th fret will be to overly affected by the (often too high) nut, and notes above around the 17th fret will suffer greatly from inharmonicity.

So stay with notes between the 7th and 17th fret and look for trends.

This all takes a VERY short amount of time, but requires some relaxed overall view of the situation.

But in general:

Set a rough bridge position for the A and B strings at the 12th fret note.

Check many notes on all strings between the 7th and 17th frets.

Ignore weird-ass outlier sharp or flat notes, they will often be there.

Look for general trends of sharpness and flatness.

Move the bridge nutward, or tail-ward as needed - noting that there will be some compromise involved. For example, you will need to accept a slightly sharp B string or a slightly flat G if you use a wound G.

(If you use super light Nancy-boy strings with a plain G you really need to consider a tune-O-matic or a custom compensated wooden bridge. No disparagement to lifestyle choices or anyone named Nancy intended,...)

We can all bend slightly, or squeeze a bit on a flat note, but sharp notes on the B sound awful to me. So I tend to emphasize the B over the high E or G. The also emphasise the A instead of the E because flaky E strings are slightly (very very slightly) more common.

All in my often flawed, or at least off-center, opinion.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

I noticed that the spell check on my iPad knows the word "inharmonicity". Wow, technological progress.

[ptchristopher3]

Oh and, the thread is somewhat emphasizing bridge position.

But as people smarter than me have already mentioned: Until the NUT, relief, and action are set (more or less in that order) - the bridge position can not be set.

In my opinion.

[sgosnell]

All pretty much true. With a standard wooden bridge, it's all a compromise, and you will never get all the strings perfectly intonated. You just have to decide which compromises you're willing to accept, and which things are more important to you. I tend to use the 5th fret for intonation and tuning, but there are lots of ways to get it done. I have a compensated wooden bridge on one guitar, and I still can't get all the strings perfect, so I settle for "close enough". I still prefer the tone to what I got from the TOM that came on the guitar, and which gave much better intonation, so I compromise on that. Everyone has to decide individually what is "close enough".