Deluxe v Princeton (Reissues)

[Bach5G]

I have a 65 DRRI. I find it difficult to find a jazz tone, particularly with my Tele.

Lately, I notice more and more Princetons showing up. This past weekend, for example, a young guy showed up at a big band rehearsal with an Eastman through a Princeton and sounded great.

I'm wondering about trading the Deluxe in for a Princeton.

[Alter]

I like both amps, you might miss the clean headroom for louder gigs though since the princeton is 15 watts and the drri 22

[Cunamara]

Have you tried the usual EQ recipe for Fender amps, which is 1-6-1 (bass-mids-treble, respectively)? The steep mids-cut in most Fender amps does not sound right to many people's ears for a jazz tone. For individual guitars you may need to adjust one of those settings a bit, but that will give you a basically flat tonal response to start from.

I find that with my Tele on the neck pickup, rolling the tone off by about 1/2 usually results in a good jazz tone. I have never found a use for the bridge pickup, whether by itself or with the neck pickup, for jazz. One of my Teles doesn't even have a bridge pickup!

A change to a rounder sounding speaker might make a difference. I quite like the Cannabis Rex for jazz in an open-back cabinet; that's what I use in my tweed Deluxe.

And also remember that what someone in the audience 20+ feet away hears is very different than what you hear three feet from the amp. I have walked out with a long cord into the seating area only to discover that my very bright un-jazzy tone on stage sounded like a couple of wet blankets over the amp out in the seats. In some rooms the highs dissipate really quickly and our tone ends up sounding like farts in the bathtub.

[John A.]

Have you tried the usual EQ recipe for Fender amps, which is 1-6-1 (bass-mids-treble, respectively)? The steep mids-cut in most Fender amps does not sound right to many people's ears for a jazz tone. For individual guitars you may need to adjust one of those settings a bit, but that will give you a basically flat tonal response to start from.

I find that with my Tele on the neck pickup, rolling the tone off by about 1/2 usually results in a good jazz tone. I have never found a use for the bridge pickup, whether by itself or with the neck pickup, for jazz. One of my Teles doesn't even have a bridge pickup!

A change to a rounder sounding speaker might make a difference. I quite like the Cannabis Rex for jazz in an open-back cabinet; that's what I use in my tweed Deluxe.

And also remember that what someone in the audience 20+ feet away hears is very different than what you hear three feet from the amp. I have walked out with a long cord into the seating area only to discover that my very bright un-jazzy tone on stage sounded like a couple of wet blankets over the amp out in the seats. In some rooms the highs dissipate really quickly and our tone ends up sounding like farts in the bathtub.

There's no mid control on a DR (or a PR, for that matter). The trick for getting more mids on one is to turn bass and treble down nearly all the way and turn the volume up.

John

[ptchristopher3]

Add a midrange control to the amp.

Absurdly easy to do, and works great. Use a 25 K pot for a really wide range control. The old time way to do this was to use an ext. speaker jack hole in the back.

Sorry for saying jack hole on a family forum.

Anyway, remove (or short out) the existing resistor at the bottom of the tone stack and put a 25K pot between the stack and ground.

Chris

[Jabberwocky]

The guy from Maken Music said, "beautiful ESS-holes," whilst describing a Collings City Limits Jazz. I fell out of my chair.

BachSG, try a 5751 or 12AU7 tube in the preamp gain stage, too. Lower the preamp gain.

With reservation, you could also try an Eminence 1028K AlNiCo driver. But it is far easier to clip the bright cap first and add a mid-control.

[Stringswinger]

Compared to a vintage Deluxe or Princeton (Blackface or Silverface), I have found the reissues to be brittle and harsh, even with speaker swaps. That said, speaker swaps made the reissues useable for jazz, if not ideal. And I found the Princeton to be better sounding than the Deluxe, both with the stock Italian Jensen speakers and the Weber vintage series replacements that I tried in both amps.

[ptchristopher3]

I just looked it up. It is R9 on the normal channel and R21 on the "vibrato" channel.

These are 6.8 K resistors between the tone stack and ground.

Replace the the resitor with a 25K pot and you will have a very wide ranging midrange control.

There is lots of curvy roundness in these amps, just need to stop draining it all to ground.

The schematic is on the web, as is the PCB drawing if you need out find things on the board.

Anyway, any remotely good amp tech can do this easily. I use a shielded line to the pot on the back of the chassis on my PRRI, but it is likely a twisted pair would be fine.

Chris

[va3ux]

Sorry for saying jack hole on a family forum.

Chris

Ah, it's nice to see you back Chris. I always enjoyed your posts.

[vinnyv1k]

If we are just talking "reissues" the Princeton is the clear winner for a nice jazz tone IMO. Of course that is without your loudness requirements in the equation. I really like the limited edition Princeton's with the 12 inch Alnicos.
The reissue Princeton has a more mini Twin sound to my ears. The reissue Deluxes break up faster than a teenage marriage. As stated above if you clip the C10 cap the Deluxes sound far better.

[StanG]

If you can't get a nice "jazz" tone with a tele and a prri, you are setting the guitar and amp knobs wrong. Neck pickup only, back the guitar vol off, then then guitar tone, then move the vol. up a little to fatten it. The 0 bass 0 treble thing on the amp really works.

[Longways to Go]

this thread is exactly why I don't care much for the Fender scooped tone stack thing.

[Cunamara]

Yeh, I agree, but there *are* a lot of great sounding recordings made with black- and silverface amps. Just 'cuz that doesn't seem to work well for me doesn't mean it can't work well.

[viccortes285]

My 68 Deluxe Reverb captures the tones I want from smooth Jazz on my Les Pauls to Clapton woman tones on my Prestige and Washburn. The 12" speaker gives a good bottom tone.


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[morroben]

Interesting stuff. How do you guys deal with single tone pot amps? Turn it down, too?

[KirkP]

There's no mid control on a DR (or a PR, for that matter). The trick for getting more mids on one is to turn bass and treble down nearly all the way and turn the volume up.
John

True. Note that if you look at the circuit diagrams for blackface fenders lacking a mid control, the mid pot is replaced by a fixed resistor with a value similar to what you'd get with a mid pot turned to 6. Also, if you look at frequency response plots with the treble and bass knobs set near the minimum, a mid control knob acts more like a volume control than a mid control, so the exact mid control setting isn't very important. Bottom line: with low bass and treble settings the mid control is unnecessary.

Blackface Fenders were EQed with a mid scoop to allow the guitar to cut through in a country or rock band without creating a muddy mess. Turning the treble and bass very low basically defeats that scoop giving the amp much closer to a flat frequency response.

[maggles55]

There is another difference between Princeton and DR that has not been mentioned, but I suspect makes a difference in tone. They use different phase inverter designs. The DR has the more common long-tailed pair design, while the Princeton uses a cathodyne (aka concertina). I note that the classic Ampeg amps that many of us revere (Gemini, Reverberocket, etc) used cathodyne PIs. Classic Dynaco HiFi amps also used cathodyne.

I've never tested it out, but cathodyne may be better for a jazzy tone. Long-tailed pair is supposed to be better for overdriven tones, which is probably why it is now universal.

[Gitfiddler]

Great explanation about Fender's EQ!

It helps me better understand why I enjoy the tonal differences between my Silverface DR and '86 Princeton Reverb II. The PRII has a Mid control that I really dig for jazz or solo playing. Both amps are in the 20 - 22 watt range also.

[ptchristopher3]

Great explanation about Fender's EQ!

It helps me better understand why I enjoy the tonal differences between my Silverface DR and '86 Princeton Reverb II. The PRII has a Mid control that I really dig for jazz or solo playing. Both amps are in the 20 - 22 watt range also.

I remain bewildered by many things. High on the list is why the midrange mod is not nearly universal on Princeton Reverbs. I somewhat disagree that one can get the same effect by dropping the treble and bass to near-zero.

EDIT: For that matter, I can imagine the perfect jazz player's mod would be the midrange in a foot switch. This would give you a great comp/solo switchable configuration. Hmmmm, I smell a February evening mod session with the Princeton, since I never use the stock foot switch for anything.

[Gitfiddler]

I remain bewildered by many things. High on the list is why the midrange mod is not nearly universal on Princeton Reverbs. I somewhat disagree that one can get the same effect by dropping the treble and bass to near-zero.

EDIT: For that matter, I can imagine the perfect jazz player's mod would be the midrange in a foot switch. This would give you a great comp/solo switchable configuration. Hmmmm, I smell a February evening mod session with the Princeton, since I never use the stock foot switch for anything.

You are in good company. Paul Rivera and Ed Jahns also thought the Mid control was a good idea for small to midsize amps when they worked for Fender.

They included it on the Champ II, Super Champ, Princeton Reverb II, Deluxe Reverb II and Concert II amp series. I've always considered these Fender amps 'factory modded'.

Fender | Ampwares

[John A.]

I remain bewildered by many things. High on the list is why the midrange mod is not nearly universal on Princeton Reverbs. I somewhat disagree that one can get the same effect by dropping the treble and bass to near-zero.

EDIT: For that matter, I can imagine the perfect jazz player's mod would be the midrange in a foot switch. This would give you a great comp/solo switchable configuration. Hmmmm, I smell a February evening mod session with the Princeton, since I never use the stock foot switch for anything.

The mid control mod to a Princeton is universal - - it's called a tubescreamer. But seriously - I don't think lack of a mid control bothers most people, and most people don't mod their amps, especially now with the reigning obsession over original condition. I haven't been tempted to mod my PR.

John

[MaxTwang]

Here's my Princeton & Deluxe "mid-mod". Easily un-doable and doesn't affect resale.

[tomems]

I was going to buy an EQ pedal for my Princeton, but after I swapped the stock Jensen speaker for a Celestion Gold G10, I didn't need to buy a pedal. Great speaker, great jazz tone...

[Philco]

I was going to buy an EQ pedal for my Princeton, but after I swapped the stock Jensen speaker for a Celestion Gold G10, I didn't need to buy a pedal. Great speaker, great jazz tone...

Did exactly the same on my 68 PRRI. Really like that speaker. Big difference!