Even US Army trusts on Polytone!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

^^^ Maybe Coltrane's experience lead him to push boundaries, later.

[agentsmith]

An interesting anecdote is that my father played saxophone in the precursor to the USArmy Field band years before!

[Bluedawg]

An interesting anecdote is that my father played saxophone in the precursor to the USArmy Field band years before!

Since your in the DC area, do you know Steve Abshire? He played with the jazz band at the Naval Academy (the Commodores IIRC). Managed a full career as a guitarist with the Navy. Has hung out with some top players.

Nice guy ... I managed to take a few lessons with him before leaving Maryland.

[AlsoRan]

Ah, the military. With few exceptions, they always have to feel they are in control.

I am not surprised to hear the way they stifled your creativity.

I don't think it is the place for a truly artistic mind to thrive, unless the person is able to truly compromise and be happy with what they can achieve. One definitely has to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision if its worth it.

I am glad you survived with your dignity and sanity intact. From what I have read, Bud Powell's experience was not quite so good.

[AlsoRan]

But to be fair, a lot of how one is treated in the military, as with life, is in one's own control. I am sure Bud Powell was too young and socially inexperienced to understand how to "play the game."

[amyFB]

Yes I am. I actually was in the army band and have some experience with the procurement process. There was no specification for the items we purchased other than the musician specifying what instrument or amp they wanted. The purchase orders did go out for bids but washington music always had the lowest prices so they pretty much always won out.

Ok I see where you are coming from.

My view is from experience in managing quality requirements, and involves reviewing specs on customer RFQs or purchase orders against the products we are bidding or shipping.

The level of minutiae in some specifications has given the term a bad rep I think sometimes.

At its most literal interpretation, in this case I would say an army band member requesting a (brand a or b) (model b. Or c) is a specification that the successful bidder has to meet.
Someone would have to sign off on an exception.

For sure the number of sign offs will differ from guitars to defense systems.




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[Bluedawg]

Ok I see where you are coming from.

My view is from experience in managing quality requirements, and involves reviewing specs on customer RFQs or purchase orders against the products we are bidding or shipping.

The level of minutiae in some specifications has given the term a bad rep I think sometimes.

At its most literal interpretation, in this case I would say an army band member requesting a (brand a or b) (model b. Or c) is a specification that the successful bidder has to meet.
Someone would have to sign off on an exception.

For sure the number of sign offs will differ from guitars to defense systems.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah ... maybe you are both on the same sheet of music and don't know it ...

To me a musicians request for a Gibson ES175D is a "specification" .....

then the contracting office would advertise a request for proposal ... or call multiple retailers ... and buy a Gibson ES175D from the lowest bidder ...

but it would still be an authentic Gibson ES175D ... not a guitar built to the same detailed specs as a Gibson 175D for $200 overseas in a country where $20 US a month is good money for the average worker

Unless the contracting office insisted on allowing them to purchase an "equivalent" product ... in which case you could end up with a Heritage or Ibanez that closely resembles the design and quality of a Gibson ES175D

[Bluedawg]

Ah, the military. With few exceptions, they always have to feel they are in control.

I am not surprised to hear the way they stifled your creativity.

I don't think it is the place for a truly artistic mind to thrive, unless the person is able to truly compromise and be happy with what they can achieve. One definitely has to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision if its worth it.

I am glad you survived with your dignity and sanity intact. From what I have read, Bud Powell's experience was not quite so good.

IME you will find creativity stifling jerks everywhere ..... the big difference is that in the military they can have more power over you than they would in most private environments ...

and it is usually harder to walk away from your military service contract than most private contracts when your fun meter is pegged

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

This is an interesting insight into the US military. How much of it applies to other countries?

[AlsoRan]

IME you will find creativity stifling jerks everywhere ..... the big difference is that in the military they can have more power over you than they would in most private environments ...

and it is usually harder to walk away from your military service contract than most private contracts when your fun meter is pegged

You hit on a good point. Most organizations, especially larger ones, frown upon people deviating from the way things are especially at the worker bee level. If you want to be creative and do something different (I believe the fancy term is deviate from procedures) you have to get it approved in advance. They don't want to take any chances on spontaneity causing failure.

Still, I digress, it was nice seeing those videos of young soldiers who are into Jazz. And the video seemed to be one produced and sanctioned by the Army. I wonder what brought it about? Was it to spark interest in their band? Who was the target audience?

Curiosity has gotten the best of me again. I will investigate.

[Bluedawg]

I did and unfortunately was disciplined for it. The bass player (Jim Roberts) and I were both on the same page in terms of being free from the confines of standard rhythms, keys, etc. During solo sections, particularly if either of us was soloing and if there were no horn part harmonies, we would often exercise freedom in terms of harmonic and rhythmic structures. There were more than a few times where we spontaneously modulated rhythms and harmonies and we both felt that we were making *REAL* music. However, the military discipline and its cronies often came down on us for being creative. One time that I will always remember, after a rehearsal in which Jim Roberts and I did "our thing", the director dismissed the entire unit other than us two and famously yelled, "It looks like you two were back there having a good-ole-time?".

To which Jim replied, "Yes sir, we certainly wouldn't want to be having a good time playing jazz".

We both had extra duty for a couple weeks after that...

So there were good *AND* bad experiences. Jim and I both felt that it was a good band, good musicians and such but the army clamped down as much as they could to keep the creativity in check. Sometimes I would get yelled at for playing "out" during a solo and you always had to edit your playing.

After three years, I got out and pursued other options. It just wasn't "the life" for me...Jim stayed in for 30+ years and recently retired as an E9. He is now teaching guitar and bass at a couple local colleges in virginia and playing classical guitar concerts.

That certainly sounds like a jerky and abusive overreaction to me ..... ....

The better response would probably be ... "We're playing for the General's wine and cheese party this weekend, please resist the temptation to turn this into an Ornette Coleman tribute."

I sometimes wish I had pursued a military guitar career, but by the time I found out the military hired guitar players I was a couple of years into my engineering degree. I was taking classical guitar as a class through the university's music college while studying engineering and one of my fellow classical students was playing guitar in the local Navy band.

Probably for the better .... I actually did some ROTC and other Air Force training that didn't pan out and I'm convinced I'm better off having stayed on the civilian side of the fence.

[AlsoRan]

OK. It appears to have been a form of advertisement for the band. I assume this because it had contact info.

They are probably still available for shows, such as those high school performances that agentsmith talked about. This is one way to get the word out.

[agentsmith]

The "contracting office" was simply the supply sergeant in our unit who was also a musician and understood that you couldn't casually substitute a cheap copy for a gibson.

Yeah ... maybe you are both on the same sheet of music and don't know it ...

To me a musicians request for a Gibson ES175D is a "specification" .....

then the contracting office would advertise a request for proposal ... or call multiple retailers ... and buy a Gibson ES175D from the lowest bidder ...

but it would still be an authentic Gibson ES175D ... not a guitar built to the same detailed specs as a Gibson 175D for $200 overseas in a country where $20 US a month is good money for the average worker

Unless the contracting office insisted on allowing them to purchase an "equivalent" product ... in which case you could end up with a Heritage or Ibanez that closely resembles the design and quality of a Gibson ES175D

[agentsmith]

Yes, I've played with Steve many times.

Since your in the DC area, do you know Steve Abshire? He played with the jazz band at the Naval Academy (the Commodores IIRC). Managed a full career as a guitarist with the Navy. Has hung out with some top players.

Nice guy ... I managed to take a few lessons with him before leaving Maryland.

[agentsmith]

Yes, that's true but if you treat music as art, the army is probably not the place for you to be. Almost to a man, the reason we all joined the army band was that it was one of the few places in the country you could get paid good money to play (mostly) jazz and get health care. You didn't join the army for creativity.

However, different people react differently to giving up control. Some folks I knew enjoyed the fact that the army decided when and where and how often you would go to the doctor or the dentist. I wasn't one of them. I always felt that big brother was an intrusion into my freedom and got out after my 3 year commitment was up. I'm glad I did it but I also don't know how I would have fared if I had stuck it out for 20+ years although many of my friends did *just* that and retired when they were 40!

But to be fair, a lot of how one is treated in the military, as with life, is in one's own control. I am sure Bud Powell was too young and socially inexperienced to understand how to "play the game."

[agentsmith]

Jim, the director and myself were all very independent and quirky characters. I challenged the director early on in my army band career and was disciplined so I rarely spoke back to him. Like many officers, the director could occasionally lose it if you didn't say "sir" often enough while speaking with him. In this way, it made for an awkward banter.

When I saw Whiplash, the director wasn't all that different from the one I worked for. I never got physically beaten but some of the verbal barbs were right on track with what I experienced. And this is not unusual for big band directors though the military gives the directors more recourse for abuse.

My band-mate Jim, could occasionally be condescending and I'm surprised he lasted 30+ years. I assume he mellowed out some after I left the band.

And we were lucky. We never played general's parties. The other army special band in the area (the army blues) were the ones who got those gigs. We were the traveling band. We toured the country, playing civic centers and arenas for PR purposes. So, we basically could play whatever we wanted but over 50% of the audiences wherever we played would be older folks and veterans who's idea of jazz was Glenn Miller so we did a lot of that material which for me was boring.

Prior to joining the band, I had been playing mostly small band jazz gigs, much of it in the free jazz category influenced by ornette coleman, eric kloss, martino, etc.

I naively thought I could continue playing like that in the army band since several of the guys I played with regularly were in the army.

That certainly sounds like a jerky and abusive overreaction to me ..... ....

The better response would probably be ... "We're playing for the General's wine and cheese party this weekend, please resist the temptation to turn this into an Ornette Coleman tribute."

I sometimes wish I had pursued a military guitar career, but by the time I found out the military hired guitar players I was a couple of years into my engineering degree. I was taking classical guitar as a class through the university's music college while studying engineering and one of my fellow classical students was playing guitar in the local Navy band.

Probably for the better .... I actually did some ROTC and other Air Force training that didn't pan out and I'm convinced I'm better off having stayed on the civilian side of the fence.

[Bluedawg]

The "contracting office" was simply the supply sergeant in our unit who was also a musician and understood that you couldn't casually substitute a cheap copy for a gibson.

Makes sense

I'm used to dealing with purchasing for IT products .... servers, routers, switches, protocol analyzers (sniffers), etc.

You can ask for a Dell server, but you may end up with an HP instead

And it's not unusual for a piece of IT gear to run over $100K for a single appliance

[agentsmith]

When I was in the ft meade band, the special bands program fell under the PR/recruiting wing of the pentagon. So the bottom line and why the band traveled and played free performances was public relations and recruiting.

You hit on a good point. Most organizations, especially larger ones, frown upon people deviating from the way things are especially at the worker bee level. If you want to be creative and do something different (I believe the fancy term is deviate from procedures) you have to get it approved in advance. They don't want to take any chances on spontaneity causing failure.

Still, I digress, it was nice seeing those videos of young soldiers who are into Jazz. And the video seemed to be one produced and sanctioned by the Army. I wonder what brought it about? Was it to spark interest in their band? Who was the target audience?

Curiosity has gotten the best of me again. I will investigate.

[sgosnell]

The larger an organization is, and the longer it has been operating, the less freedom it allows, or can afford to allow. The US military is very large, and has been doing things its way for a long time. It's the same with businesses. A small business with only a few employees can easily change and allow those employees to do things in different ways, but the larger the business, and the more employees it has, the less that can be allowed. Management has to be adapted to the lowest common denominator, because discriminating between employees becomes impossible at the highest levels, and it's not realistically allowable even at the lowest levels.

[agentsmith]

this has less to do with large organizations and more to do with military discipline and conformance. The reason for the military discipline doesn't have to do with change. It has to do with following orders without asking questions which is necessary during war. They can't afford to have someone questioning orders and freelancing or improvising when lives are at stack. Of course, the special forces are an exception to that but they are trained to improvise and react as a team, much like jazz musicians...

Unfortunately, the conformance mentality filters down to the band programs. The special bands are unique organizations in that - at least when I was in - you didn't have to do weapons training or other non musical duties and you could stay in the same unit and the same location your entire career. My friend Jim Roberts served in DC for 30 years for example. The marine special band even has an exemption so that they do not have to go through boot camp. Apparently, they could not get musicians through boot camp. I had no such luck because the army doesn't have that exemption. I do know a couple army band members who had to repeat basic training because they physically couldn't pass their first try!

Many large organizations now recognize and value individual contribution and being different. Google, microsoft, sun, apple for example...

[Bluedawg]

And sometimes the band is all you have between you and the bad guys:


This is the 28th division band at Wiltz, Belgium in the early days of the Battle of the Bulge ... they got beat up pretty bad

Photo: Every Band Member A Rifleman