Hiding serial number from online guitar auction

**diminix** · 02-07-2017, 06:38 AM

I am having an eye on an online auction of an ES-175, allegedly from 1961. The serial number of the guitar is not shown--no pictures from the rear of the headstock, no picture of the sticker inside the guitar body.

I asked the bidder about it, received the answer: "Robert, be sure that I will provide sensitive info like pictures with the serial number to winning bidder. I hope you understand."

Well, I do not understand. When I am the winning bidder, I'll have the guitar in my hands soon, so I won't be in need of any pictures of it. Is there a reason to act like this as a bidder? Should I regard that with suspicion?

Robert

**vinlander** · 02-07-2017, 07:07 AM

Never understood that habit of hiding the serial number on a guitar for sale, as it pisses more potential buyer than preventing the number to be used by unscrupulous fakers...Even more stupid if they won't reveal the number even privately prior to a sale or auction.
A serial number is no industrial secret, but could reveal if an instrument was stolen before...
Who would buy a car from someone not disclosing the vin?

**Klatu** · 02-07-2017, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by vinlander

Never understood that habit of hiding the serial number on a guitar for sale, as it pisses more potential buyer than preventing the number to be used by unscrupulous fakers...Even more stupid if they won't reveal the number even privately prior to a sale or auction.
A serial number is no industrial secret, but could reveal if an instrument was stolen before...
Who would buy a car from someone not disclosing the vin?

That is exactly the point. Just like counterfeit money, the individual who is damaged by the counterfeiter isn't the person who creates the money, rather it's the last person holding the money at the time of its discovery as fraud.

The same goes for stolen goods. The instrument may have been stolen early in its life and later exchanged hands several times. Even if the last person to have bought the instrument did so legitimately, they are the one to suffer the consequences of the crime. "Let losses lie where they fall".

Hiding the serial number is indeed sketchy. It sends the message that the instrument's provenance is less than assured.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 02-07-2017, 08:28 AM

I've heard from some that they fear someone will falsely claim it was stolen and belongs justly belongs to them. Without a detailed police report sometime in the past that clearly shows that it's the guitar in question, there is absolutely no claim.

There's no justifiable reason for hiding a serial number.

**amyFB** · 02-07-2017, 08:35 AM

I agree with others that it is suspicious and a red flag that would make me walk away and keep watching for another auction

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**hotpepper01** · 02-07-2017, 08:42 AM

Never understood it either. What is there to hide or protect?
Seems to me you have two choices. Take the chance or walk away.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 02-07-2017, 08:45 AM

I'd send a reply telling the gentleman that I won't be offering a bid without the SN.

**lawson-stone** · 02-07-2017, 09:51 AM

I'd just say I'm assuming the guitar is stolen and I will not buy it, nor anything else that seller offers.

**ugarte** · 02-07-2017, 11:09 AM

It probably doesn't apply to the used guitar world but serial numbers of some products can be used for identity-theft schemes.

I too, have never understood concealing S/N for vintage guitars, seems more nefarious than prudent, and including the S/N might even prevent a lot of problems.

**diminix** · 02-07-2017, 01:29 PM

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts!

It doesn't seem to be an overly transparent auction. Probably it is not the best way to buy an ES-175, without getting your hands on before paying the bill. Especially, when you're socially underprivileged and it takes a lot of work and saving to scrape together the money for gear like that--maybe we are not supposed to own things like these down here...

Robert

**Jimmy Mack** · 02-07-2017, 09:00 PM

Because you are really passionate, working hard, and scraping, to get a great guitar, is the real reason you may want to stay away from a potentially shady deal.

Don't buy on impulse. If the deal is too good to be true, be suspicious. The dishonest are out there.

And then , sometimes, it's just not meant to be. You should be totally comfortable with your purchase. There are a million guitars out there! We have all been led down sketchy paths - just use your smarts, and rely on the good advice the gentlemen here may offer you.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 02-07-2017, 09:08 PM

I never sold much gear online, eBay seemed rife with people trying to lowball or take advantage. I don't have the patience or stomach for it. The few times I DID list stuff on eBay I got requests for the serial numbers - when pressed sure enough these people contacting me were looking for their long lost guitar. I got the few I had tried to sell from really top flight dealers who are required to hold an instrument 30 days before putting it up for sale, they don't need the police down their throats for not getting a photo id and full contact info from who they buy from.

I DO see guys show the first couple numbers of a serial number with the rest taped over for their protection. There's a lot of creeps out there in this world. Surely if you do not feel comfortable buying without seeing the serial number that is your prerogative. It sure is better to hold and play a guitar in your hands anyway. If your financial resources are limited (sure been there in my earlier years) you really want to try it physically (with your amp) to see if it works for you. There is an advantage to buying from a music store that carries consignment or used instruments aside from knowing the instrument is not stolen, there is the satisfaction of going home KNOWING it really is fun playing. Buying online is not perfect, never will be. I've seen my share of ES175s and they all FELT different in my hands. You really want to hold and play it.

Best of luck in your hunt.

**diminix** · 02-08-2017, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ

It sure is better to hold and play a guitar in your hands anyway. If your financial resources are limited (sure been there in my earlier years) you really want to try it physically (with your amp) to see if it works for you.

Yeah, I feel certain about that... But ES-175s are not swarming around German province. It is almost impossible to get any of these into your hands, much less at a good price point. Prices for new ones are way beyond of being absurd. A bunch of used ones offered in ebay and elsewhere are tagged with any phantastic price label you can think of--it looks like random generated numbers, the algorithm being [in Euro's]:

x = random(1000,10000);
y = 2000 + x;

I will be looking for it patiently. It seems to be the same story as learning to improvise: I don't see that it is possible, it is not meant for me, but I keep trying and hopefully, some day it will come.

Robert

ps: The offer of the ES-175, which was due to this afternoon, has disappeared from my ebay watch list. Can't find it anymore in ebay at all. Instead, I have six mails from ebay security staff in my inbox with the title MC139 NOTICE: eBay Communication Partner Warning, saying that the account of the user offering the ES-175 was possibly used by some hacker, and that I should be careful. So there will be no trouble for me with that S/N problem...

**jasaco** · 02-08-2017, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by diminix

ps: The offer of the ES-175, which was due to this afternoon, has disappeared from my ebay watch list. Can't find it anymore in ebay at all. Instead, I have six mails from ebay security staff in my inbox with the title MC139 NOTICE: eBay Communication Partner Warning, saying that the account of the user offering the ES-175 was possibly used by some hacker, and that I should be careful. So there will be no trouble for me with that S/N problem...

Wow! So your concerns were entirely justified and the guy was a crook, as suspected! Great lesson in this thread, folks. No S/N, no bid!