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hey, i like plong plong
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01-29-2017 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
I don't really agree ... of course if you're a total beginner and might end giving up the instrument soon then dumping a good deal of money into a guitar might be silly, but other than that all is fine in my book.
The young that usually don't have much to spend are also usually greatful that they have something to play, so I'm not worried about them (especially if they buy used) ... and for us older cork sniffing gits .. Who cares. I earned my money the hard way and I wont sit here and listen to you tell me, that my tone sucks
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This seems to come up again and again. Mostly people are talking across from one another.
As I see it, there is no practical reason to buy an expensive or custom guitar. The rally racers in Norway drive cars that cost $2500. They are some of the best and most competitive drivers in the World, and the races are thrilling. Does that mean no one should buy a Lamborghini? There is a video of a woman in Ghana playing amazing music on a plywood box so beat up it is nearly see through. Does that mean we all should be playing a beat to heck plywood flat top?
People who want a guitar that is a unique work of art that has been personalized to them by a master craftsman don't asses it on practical grounds. It is a small market, but a real one. People who need a practical tool to gig are going to have different considerations. Likewise it probably doesn't make sense for a student beginner to have Ken Parker build him an archtop for $35k.
Arguing about resale value to someone who wants a Ken Parker archtop is as pointless as discussing the beauty of French Polish to a a gigging musician who plays in two regular bands and a regular wedding thing and is wondering when someone will make an indestructible 2lbs guitar that can do fingerstyle ballads, death metal shreds, and BB King style blues at a flick of a switch.
I will add that a poorly set up guitar with cheap pickups can hold you back. My first guitar was a MIK Squire. It was nearly unplayable. But as a beginner I didn't know what was wrong with it. It nearly discouraged me from continuing playing. Then I played my friend's American Standard. It was effortless. I was a much better player. Eventually I had a pro setup done and I swapped out the pickups. It still wasn't effortless to play, but much closer to the MIA Strat.
Testing some cheap guitars at a mega music store, I found a lot of unplayable Chinese guitars. There was one Epi where the neck geometry was so bad the strings ran off the treble edge of the Fretboard at the 17th fret. But there were also some perfectly set up ones. Going really cheap is almost a bigger risk for someone who doesn't know much about guitars because they won't know what is wrong or what can be fixed.
Whether an expensive guitar makes sense to you is entirely dependent on your situation. It is just not something where there is one RIGHT answer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just back home from working overtime and so my mind is a bit cloudy, but something that no one has mentioned are amps. Take the cheapest guitar you can find and plug it into a high end amp and chances are it will sound good
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Here's my story.
A couple of years ago, my arthritis was at a low point. Several left hand finger joints were painful and I could barely use my pinkie. I was having injections periodically. These helped, but I was warned not to have too many. (The problem btw later turned out to be related to a vitamin deficiency -- but the treatment for this requires medical supervision to avoid hurting yourself). I digress.
Around the same time, I had a gig which required two trips to the car. I asked my bandmates to watch my gear while I got the second load. They forgot and it was pure good fortune that my 1984 L5S with custom fretwork and pickup didn't get ripped off.
Shortly after that I came across a used Yamaha Pacifica 012 (cheapest one) in a store and bought it for $125 with a cheap bag. You can buy this on CL every day for $70 or so. Mind did have replacement tuners FWIW.
I liked the feel of the neck, but it took me a long time to adjust mentally to the idea of playing a guitar that cheap. Eventually, I had to admit that I liked the feel better than an American Std Fender Stratocaster and it didn't hurt my hands as much as the L5S.
I took both the Yamaha and the Fender into the studio and we recorded both. Fact is, the Fender sounded better. I don't recall if I had the Lil 59 in the Yamaha at that time. But, the Yamaha sounded good enough. I think the Yamaha may sound slightly better in the upper register and slightly worse in the midrange.
As time passed, I admitted to myself that the cheapie Yamaha was performing better in my particular situation than those other guitars.
Eventually I replaced the unpadded bag that came with it with a proper padded case. The case cost more than the guitar.
Now, with the guitar on my back (I'd always had an old fashioned HSC before that) and with a new purchase, a plastic rolling file box ($20 or so at Office Max), I could move everything in one trip. My amp fits on its end in the rolling file box (JC55) and all the other stuff I need fits around it.
I don't get sore hands playing the Yamaha, but I do when I return to the Gibson, even briefly.
BTW, in case anyone is interested. Mine was made in Indonesia, but the new 012s are made in China. Same specs, but not, for some reason, exactly the same guitar. The next model up, not sure of the number, but maybe 112, has the same spec for neck profile. The higher end guitars have larger necks. The Yamaha rep himself recommended playing the new ones because they may differ from mine, even with the same model number.
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Hard to disagree with the points the OP made.
Also, just for the sake of argument, I don't see any mention of Gibson on the original post.
That said, I think we all would like to have and play the best guitar we can afford. I could afford a relatively expensive guitar if I didn't have an ex-wife, 4 kids some of whom are still in college, and other hobbies I enjoy (woodworking, fly-fishing, cycling, etc.).
I enjoy finding well-made instruments at a great price. I've never had a Chinese guitar, but the quality of Koreans like Peerless is excellent. I enjoy my Gibson but the Peerless still gets a lot of attention and is actually more comfortable to play.
The main point I agree with is that you just have to play it yourself and find what "speaks to you".
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I saw your story in another thread as well, but just wanted to say that I'm glad you've found a guitar that works for you! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm not there yet, but my wrist has been bothering me for a couple of years and I've been forced to go down a couple of sizes in string gauge. Hopefully it won't get worse.
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Well DJ, no insult intended to you as you and your opinions are respected but it seems as if at least this time you are in the minority. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I and others found it extremely easy to disagree with the OP. His broad brush strokes were gathered on some less than 100 sampled gits while many times that number of models of Asian imports are being happily used by members of this forum and worldwide, not only by tyros but professionals. His tone was condescending to say the least to those of us who do buy and enjoy well made Asian imports.
Also FWIW... he also did not mention Ibanez which I did in addition to Gibson as references for the opposites in pricing versus quality.
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i recently picked up a MIK Epiphone 175 and couldn't be more pleased. Even if I only use it for guitar lessons in a very confined space, I won't have that sad, felling of dinging it from time to time as I turn to put it in its case, or re-position myself during a lesson only to ding it. I figure those dings on an an L-5 cost about $100 per time and I can continue to enjoy the great sounds provided by the L5C in the privacy of my own studio. The quality of the Epiphone models is quite amazing.
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I only kept one guitar. Not worth a ton of money but plays well enough. Why this one? Because my MIDI converter is installed on it. Guild solid body neck through Mahogany. Kind of ugly and beat up. After market Floyd Rose installed on it too.
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.... and BTW, it's recorded in Musikverein in Wienna where Stradivari and Guarneri violins use to rule. Quite a prestigeous place. Originally Posted by joaopaz
The guitar solo starts at 2:28.
This is a well know case of a cheap guitar, by all accounts.
To me this is the dream tone.
So I "rest my case"
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So, what guitar he played there? Originally Posted by joaopaz
The guitar solo starts at 2:28.
This is a well know case of a cheap guitar, by all accounts.
To me this is the dream tone.
So I "rest my case"
...Last edited by Vladan; 01-30-2017 at 06:30 AM.
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Here's a video of Mark Elf, who normally plays either an original D'Aquisto or a luthier made equivalent, playing an inexpensive Epiphone.
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This video popped up again on my YouTube feed.
I guess this qualifies as "cheap Chinese made" - limited run Ibanez AS103 in burl or spalted maple, flame maple binding everywhere. Rosewood pickup surrounds, rosewood pick guard and knobs. Amazing fretwork and fit and finish will knock your eyes out. Yeah cheap chinese made guitars... right
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Oh, and by the way, Oscar is playing a cheap Chinese piano...No.. wait a minute... Originally Posted by oldane
Actually it is a Bosendorfer... About a Scillion $$ worth.
When I was just starting to play (late 60's) there were no cheap Chinese guitars, but there
were instead, the dreaded Teisco-Del Rey you could buy at Thrifty's, WOW, they all had about
100 pickups and organ style switches, action a foot high, neck binding would slice your hand.
If you played 10 different chords, they would be out of tune 10 different ways.. Horrible!
Then one day a miracle... My friend brought over a Gibson Melody Maker to our jam that he borrowed
from his uncle... unbelieveable, it was playable, I sucked so much less on this guitar, visions of
Hendrix danced in my head, then next jam I found out "Uncle" lost the Gibson in a poker game..
Damn, back to my Teisco... back to suckingLast edited by Papawooly; 01-30-2017 at 02:12 PM.
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"My friend brought over a Gibson Melody Maker to our jam that he borrowed from his uncle... unbelieveable, it was playable, I sucked so much less on this guitar,"
I wonder how many others had an epiphany like this. Mine was a ZimGar going to a Strat. :-)
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Yeah, I think we are past Chinese = Bad. But that doesn't mean that Bad # Bad. And there is a lot of bad still out there. Originally Posted by Papawooly
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01-30-2017, 09:11 PM #43joaopaz GuestThere is some debate, but here's a common answer (or maybe this is already solved, I don't know... still, it's an inexpensive LP clone) Originally Posted by Vladan
Why buy a cheap or expensive jazz box
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I don't know if your tone sucks or not and I wouldn't be so rude as to say so if it did. I just think that it's far more important to be getting tone from your hands. If you don't have that going for you, a $20,000 archtop is only going to carry you so far. Originally Posted by Lobomov
I earned my money the hard way and I wont sit here and listen to you tell me, that my tone sucks
Just my two cents' worth.
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I can't recall hearing a guitarist anywhere whose tone really sucked. I just can't think of one.
That is, except for my pet peeve, which is players, usually with a full size archtop, who are comping on the middle four strings on the lower frets, in a band with a bass and piano -- and just make low-mid frequency mud.
And, for those guys, I have no doubt that their tone sounds fine right where they're sitting.
Oh, and another point. The cheapest guitar sounds better than the most expensive guitar, if the expensive one is feeding back at the time. My impression is that the better the acoustic sound, the more you're going to have to address feedback issues. So, that expensive guitar is going to be best on a quiet stage.
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Some Aria Les Paul lookalike. Originally Posted by Vladan
Originally Posted by Papawooly
Originally Posted by Papawooly
Yes. Peterson always played Bösendorfer - he had in his contracts that the venue must supply a concert grand Bösendorfer which was tuned on the day of the concert. Bösendorfer's headquarters is just across the street from the Musikverein where this concert took place. The Bösendorfer pianos are known for their thicker sound and fuller bass as compared to the Steinways - a trend in tone that is characteristic of German and Central European instruments. It is also found in German/Austrian wood wind instruments (clarinets, oboes).Last edited by oldane; 01-31-2017 at 03:51 PM.
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I also have a seemingly ubiquitous Yamaha PAC012 and it's a surprisingly well-built guitar with decent sounding pickups. One thing I really like about it is that the slightly smaller body (compared to a strat) along with forearm and back contours place my hand in an ideal position for fingerstyle. It's not my first guitar of choice (partly because it is dedicated to a less-common alternate tuning) but it is one of the first that I recommend to a new player looking for an electric to start. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I'm guessing it is going to carry me at least as far as any other guitar with the added bonus of having a wonderful piece of art in my hands Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
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I am now happily gigging and teaching with a 98 Epi Zephyr Regent and a Cigano Gj15, both of which I got for under 400. Of course I am not at the highest level of fame and fortune, but I get paid for my gigs and get compliments on my sound. I love the sound and feel of both guitars. I have used many more expensive ones over the years and didn't really get better results from any of them.
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I love the feel and sound of a well built quality guitar .... sometimes I think it's a curse
I couldn't tell you if a recording is a $500 guitar or a $50,000 guitar ...
but I certainly prefer having my hands on my expensive Gibsons more than my cheap Ibanez PM that I added to my arsenal a few years ago ...
It's probably psychosomatic ... but it seems real to me
A friend has a nice Ibanez George Benson ... I think it's Japanese, but it may be Chinese ... feels horrible to me .. maybe it's just the set up .... but he gets great sounds out of it
I do believe that there are some really great cheap guitars out there ... more now than ever before ....
one of my theories is that the more money you spend the better your chances of getting a good guitar on the first try ... but you still have a chance at finding some dogs ... if you play 10 or 20 you might find one you don't like, several you like a lot, and that 1 that is just fantastic
But if you go cheap you may play 10 or even 20 and get 8 or 18 that are just OK ... but eventually you'll find on or two that really are awesome playing and sounding
I really want to give Mr Wu a try and see if his "cheap" Chinese guitars can break the mold and get me a great archtop guitar for under $2000
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