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FWIW, I don't believe that this fracture is along the same lines as the original fracture. Look at the photos. You can just make out the original neck crack, which appears to have been at a steeper angle. It appears to have been well repaired and held. This is a shallower fracture. It, too, should be repairable. However, I concur that it should be repaired sooner rather than later because of the matter of wood oxidation. It will all fit together better if handled sooner. The result should be strong.
The trick, down the line, is not to let the instrument tip over, fall, etc. Accidents happen, but with archtop guitars it is important to take every reasonable precaution. For example, I NEVER put my archtops on a stand. I play them and return them to a case--even at a gig.
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12-15-2016 11:22 PM
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On fresh wood, I'd make that call too. On a break over a break though, that joint, arguably the most stressed single point on the guitar given lbs/in, there's been a double failure. I'd say that on a guitar you want to keep, there is no third strike. For this case, I'd seriously consider a spline. If it were mine, and if I determined that there are common fracture areas from the previous break, I would consider the (gasp) time consuming option of resurfacing or even fitting a V join... just for kicks and because I would never want to even consider a worry in the future. Spline is a good viable option IF there is common fracture and breakage. This is a special situation here, and not to be treated as a first time fresh break.
Originally Posted by customxke
Excellent point Greentone. Originally Posted by Greentone
I'm not sure what glue line you're looking at, but be careful you're not seeing the wings on the headstock or the inherent grain line of the peghead wood.
On the point of different outside fracture lines though, I agree. BUT I can't see inside and without an x-ray, I can't tell the internal shape of the original break and how, if at all, it coincides with the new one.
Another thing I've learned over the years, finish breaks tell a story, and internal damage done by a break can only be hinted at by what you can see. I used to QC and repair guitars for a big guitar company. There's no telling what trauma a guitar incurred in shipping but if there was even a tiny finish fracture below the nut, the guitar was seconded. There's no way to tell what chaos was unleashed when that trauma left the crack. TWICE on one guitar,... well there's the repair and there's the damage unseen. We can only guess after a certain point. This is a case to err on the side of caution if ever were one.
Just my opinion though. I feel bad for the customer when he brings in a repair. I feel a million times worse when he brings back a repair that failed.
From this point on though, it's all speculation from a bunch of guys who don't have the instrument in front of them. Find a luthier you trust. And trust him/her.
DavidLast edited by TH; 12-16-2016 at 07:02 AM.
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Be careful. If you do a self repair on a critical loaded joint and if it does fail, for whatever reason, any luthier you turn to consequently would have to be a saint not to hate you. Been there. Or assuage their fury and frustration with a very hefty $$/hour bill. Done that. Originally Posted by wharriso
That's a nice guitar. Don't start your medical career by attempting open heart surgery on your mother.
My humble thoughts anyway.
David
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Because of the previous break, if that were my guitar I would use 24 hour cure epoxy for the glue. After that I like to inlay a mahogany "strap" into the back of the scroll, extending well past the break. Despite any contamination or missing splinters, that type of repair will hold forever, and the sweeping cut inlay is better for many reasons compared to square section splines. But spline type reinforcements preserve the serial numbers and Made In USA stamp.
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The bottom line is, if you get the repair done right, you will have an L4CES after its done. One of the best guitars ever.
Although now, it is devastating and every time you look at it, it makes you sick. I guarantee you, in a couple of months, your confidence in the repair will grow. Eventually, you wont even know its there.
One thing to remember, the glue will become stronger than the wood itself. That's a fact. I glued a simple butt joint at a right angle with titebond. I let it dry for 3 days. Then I tried to break the joint by slamming the piece up against the side of my cast iron table saw. I couldn't break the glue joint. The wood eventually broke in a different spot.
You will always be able to see the break. Unless your luthier puts a stinger on it, then you will see the seem. But the key is not rushing it. Once the wood is set, It will be sanded smooth. Then the luthier will apply the lacquer in coats. The lacquer will take a while to dry. Once it does, he will sand it and re-spray it. This may happen several times. The once there is enough of a good strong coating of lacquer on the area, he can level it off. If he does it right, you wont be able to feel it. It will be as strong and stable as the wood itself.
Remember, please don't go cheap on the repair. This is a Gibson L4CES. This guitar can be great again.
JDLast edited by Max405; 12-16-2016 at 04:03 PM.
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This is sad, my take on the neck is despite the brand the piece of wood used for the neck is prone to fracture in this area and will again unless something is done besides a strait re glue, I agree with Greentone that the old repair isn't what let go. A scarfed in V isn't a bad idea at all, painting the back of the headstock black down to the end of the repair wouldn't look out of place as other models have it. Originally Posted by Max405
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Never seen it done, but you might be able to remove some material, laminate in epoxied carbon fiber sheets, reshape and paint.
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What you'd want is carbon fiber uni. The fibers are oriented in one direction. Available from marine suppliers like Jamestown Marine, Defender, West Marine etc.... They have epoxy too. Carbon fiber actually shapes well after curing. After shaping you'd want to use another coating of epoxy to fill exposed weave then finish sand and paint etc...
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What you want is to leave the repair to someone who has done a lot of these repairs on Les Pauls and such.
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This is what I'd recommend:
FRETS.COM
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The main issue will be making sure that the glue from the previous repair is completely clean. Then blending in to make it as unnoticeable as possible. But any wood break can be repaired. The cost of a repair like that should run about 300.00 but it depends where you live and if the luthier is well known. Some more sought after luthiers are more expensive as they are know for the quality of their work. They will make it invisible and permanent.
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painful to watch
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Guys,
This talk of repairs and restoration put me in mind of a little talk I gave at a Christmas service a few years back. I 'm NOT posting this to preach a sermon, but there is Christian content here. But the core of the thing is a story about a repair project I undertook and what it ended up meaning to me.
Please don't take this as me trying to evangelize, just sharing something that I hope will encouraged the OP about getting his L4ces repaired and knowing he can love it as much, even more, after the repair as before.
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Wow. To my amateur eye, that looks like a masterful piece of repair. Originally Posted by vejesse
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That is nice, be even stronger with some carbon fiber in there Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I agree that instruments can come out of something like this better than before. For sure the right job will be stronger. Many of my favorite instruments were rebuilt from wrecks as a affordable way to get a good instrument and to get something I'd feel ok about customizing. While I agree with Greentone that prevention is better than cure I always go for road worthy because there anything can happen.
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I wouldn't use mahogany. I'd use a strip that's more dense like maple. Epoxy would work. So would regular carpenters glue but I'd go with hot hide glue for everything. Originally Posted by vejesse
In any event you're right. This needs reinforcement. A wood strip about 4-5" X 1/2 X 1/8.
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Carbon fiber is hard to beat. You can always leave room in the groove to put some wood over the top of the CF. No reason why you couldn't use epoxy for the CF and hide glue for the matching wood over the CF. Originally Posted by Cavalier
That is nice, be even stronger with some carbon fiber in there I agree that instruments can come out of something like this better than before. For sure the right job will be stronger. Many of my favorite instruments were rebuilt from wrecks as a affordable way to get a good instrument and to get something I'd feel ok about customizing. While I agree with Greentone that prevention is better than cure I always go for road worthy because there anything can happen.
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Lawson, great story. That was a really nice diversion. Loved it and keep being you. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Take care buddy.
Joe D
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Thats how the best of the best would fix it. Originally Posted by vejesse
Its just wood. To an expert, wood is very easy to work with.
Remember, the extra time and effort (=price) is worth it. It's a Gibson L4CES.
No matter what, the glue is stronger than the wood itself.
Joe D
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Lawson, when it comes to such matters, I'm what you might call more oriented to the forest than any particular tree. That said, much respect and love to you brother for having the courage and love to go out on a limb and share the view from your 'neck of the wood'. Merry Christmas! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Very nice, Lawson - you have said a lot with economy, humility, and grace. Well done! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Thanks! Originally Posted by citizenk74
Very nice, Lawson - you have said a lot with economy, humility, and grace. Well done!
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A couple cautions I'd give for newbies on hot hide glue, 1 never use the non hot varient, it won't hold in humidity. 2, Hot hide glue is organic and takes special handling and correct temperature and tight, close fitting joints. It is not a gap filler.
As long as Lawson started us coming out of the closet on the holidays I feel better about my paganism. This is our season too but it is always hard to explain the goat pants. In the closet I had to pretend it was my supply for rendering hot hide glue.
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I believe Gibson Nashville has a repair dept. Might be worth checking out to at least keep more of it's original value.
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If you used Carbon fiber and epoxied the wood top layer at the same time you'd have a strong primary versus secondary bond. Originally Posted by Stevebol
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