Good Years / Bad Years for Gibson? Specifically for 3x5 Semis?

**jim777** · 11-17-2016, 12:04 PM

Hey guys and gals

I am currently selling a few of my 'metal' guitars (one is enough) and looking at getting a semi as well as a thin(ish) hollow archtop. I've pretty much settled on the ibanez PM-100/120 for the latter, and am thinking about a 335/345/347/355 for the former.
I have been hearing on other forums for years that the new Gibson solidbodies have been awful, frankly, from guys I know who work in music stores around the country. Fretwork, nut work, etc. I have been very good things about the recent archtops though, so my thought was likely different groups of luthiers and techs working the different lines, or different buildings...I don't know. As I mentioned, everything I've heard about Gibson quality has really been hearsay and to ad to that my experience with the brand ended when I sold my last Les Paul in '80.
I know a few of you are much more in tune with what the general quality is like, having played far more guitars than I have in the last 10 or 15 years (I have played maybe 10 or 15 different guitars in that time, and and maybe 20 basses).

So...have the last few years of 335s been of a consistent quality, and has that quality been high? I want to buy something to keep and pass on to my kids, and while I don't care much about the headstock name my thought is "Gibson" might make it easier for a daughter to sell if chooses at some point after I'm gone.

If there was a year where things really improved, or really went downhill conversely, what were those years?

I should state I'm not trying to bash Gibson here as I am looking to buy one, but I can't afford to drop more than maybe $2K which would definitely get a fine instrument with a different name on the headstock. I am not currently looking for a 339 or Midtown, though I could definitely grab a minty Midtown Custom for under $1400 it seems.

Thanks in advance for all your wisdom and insight

**Hogtown Fatty** · 11-17-2016, 01:41 PM

I really don't believe in the good year/bad year stuff as a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of when it was manufactured. For example, I recently had an original '59 345 that I sold within a week as I simply couldn't vibe with it. Neck was too slim (despite being an early '59) and the double white PAF's didn't sound all that great- I actually preferred various sets of repro PAF's I had around.

At around $2k your best bet will probably be one of the satin finish 335's, which feel and sound great. If the pickups aren't your bag, you can sell them and swap in another set. In that range you could also get into an 80's 335 of some sort- the best of that era feature the Tim Shaw PAF pickups, but those will run you around $3k... maybe you can score one for a deal though; they were made '81-'85 if I recall and come with Grovers stock. I've seen some of the '63 reissue 335's sell for around $2500, might be worth saving an extra $500 for as they're pretty terrific!

Good luck.

**nopedals** · 11-17-2016, 03:59 PM

At your price point you aren't in the market for old ones, but here is a summary of vintage Gibson neck shapes from the guitar hq web site:

"WW2-1959: Known as "baseball bats" due to the large back size. Just after the war Gibson settled on 1 11/16" as their standard neck width measured across the nut. The 1959 era necks are often considered the best of this era; large and comfortable without being huge. 1960-1962: Thin neck back shape, even compared to today's standards these necks don't have much wood behind the fingerboard and feel very thin.
1963-1964: Larger neck shape, but still smaller than the 1950's "baseball bat" style.
1965-1967: Most models have nut width dramatically reduced making the neck feel very small. Back shape is about the same as the 1963-1964 era, but the narrow nut width makes these necks feel like "pencil necks". The pre-1965 neck width is around 1 11/16". The 1965 to 1967 neck width is 1 9/16" or 1 5/8".
1968-present: Nut width increased back to 1 11/16" and back shape changed to 1963-1964 standards. 1970: Volute added to back of neck behind the nut."

Largely a matter of preference. The "pencil necks" are obviously are not for everyone, and are a bit harder to move for that reason.

**Hogtown Fatty** · 11-17-2016, 04:22 PM

These are good general rules of thumb, but not universal for each and every guitar made in those years. The early '59 345 I had recently had a pencil thin neck, much like what you'd find on a '60/'61. I've played quite a few slim '59's actually- more than I've played chunky ones actually. But I also played a mint '59 335 a few days ago that had a nice chunky one. Below is a photo of the '59 345 I had- you can tell it's an early '59 because of the black Varitone surround.

Originally Posted by nopedals

At your price point you aren't in the market for old ones, but here is a summary of vintage Gibson neck shapes from the guitar hq web site:

"WW2-1959: Known as "baseball bats" due to the large back size. Just after the war Gibson settled on 1 11/16" as their standard neck width measured across the nut. The 1959 era necks are often considered the best of this era; large and comfortable without being huge. 1960-1962: Thin neck back shape, even compared to today's standards these necks don't have much wood behind the fingerboard and feel very thin.
1963-1964: Larger neck shape, but still smaller than the 1950's "baseball bat" style.
1965-1967: Most models have nut width dramatically reduced making the neck feel very small. Back shape is about the same as the 1963-1964 era, but the narrow nut width makes these necks feel like "pencil necks". The pre-1965 neck width is around 1 11/16". The 1965 to 1967 neck width is 1 9/16" or 1 5/8".
1968-present: Nut width increased back to 1 11/16" and back shape changed to 1963-1964 standards. 1970: Volute added to back of neck behind the nut."

Largely a matter of preference. The "pencil necks" are obviously are not for everyone, and are a bit harder to move for that reason.

**wintermoon** · 11-17-2016, 04:40 PM

"1968-present: Nut width increased back to 1 11/16" and back shape changed to 1963-1964 standards. 1970: Volute added to back of neck behind the nut."

just a couple points;
the nut width increased in mid '69, but the back shape remained very thin well into the 70s
also the volutes didn't really come into play until the mid/late 70s, at least on the archtops

**Greentone** · 11-17-2016, 04:42 PM

I don't think I've ever played a 335/345/355 that was a dog. Some are better than others, but they are all good to begin with. We are talking about a _classic_ design, here. I lived in two apartments as a kid (SoCal and Hawaii) where my next door neighbors had late-50s 335s. Those were the earliest electric guitars I ever played. What a way to begin learning about electric guitars! It can only go downhill...

I really found a sweet spot from '64-'67 for ES-335 guitars that I have played and liked. My personal 335, though, was a '75 Norlin-era guitar. It should have been comparatively inferior. However, playing it on gigs with a '64 on the same stand, right at my disposal, I discovered that both guitars had _very_ similar vibes. The '64 was undeniably prettier (and worth much more). The sound and feel of both guitars was pretty comparable, though.

The Tim Shaw guitars from the '80s are quite good and great values, IMO. The guitars from the 90s represent even better values and can be had for the money you are talking about.

I don't think you will go wrong with a Gibson.

**wintermoon** · 11-17-2016, 04:48 PM

"My personal 335, though, was a '65 Norlin-era guitar"

'69 and on was the Norlin era GT

**Thumpalumpacus** · 11-17-2016, 04:54 PM

Every era has gems and dogs, in my opinion. Try before you buy, play before you pay, etc etc.

**rob taft** · 11-17-2016, 06:20 PM

I agree with Hogtown Fatty. There is no good era, try before you buy. The best sounding and playing Les Paul I owned was a 1974 Les Paul Deluxe that I purcahsed new in 74'. I also owned a 1960 ES345. It was a great sounding guitar but I couldn't live with the narrow nut width and narrow profile. That said, I bought it in 1976 and schlepped it around for the next 25 years and sold it for a nice profit considering I only paid $150.00 for it in 76'. But as far as resale goes, I wish I would have bought $150.00 of Apple stock instead.

**icr** · 11-17-2016, 06:36 PM

If you have concerns about 'getting a bad one' I'd only buy a guitar that I could see and tryout. No internet sale.

joaopaz · 11-17-2016, 06:38 PM

I'm going to go a bit off-topic, but since you mentioned the Ibanez PM-100/120...

...I must state I have nothing against the Gibson 335's (I'd be mad)...
...that is, nothing but the price. And that is not about 335s specific, but about the major brands, where I don't see a direct relation between price/quality.

Here's a small exercise:
Currently at one of the major online stores - Ibanez versus Gibson most expensive 335.
Ibanez -> Ibanez JSM-100VT John Scofield -> 2399 Eur
Gibson -> Gibson 1959 ES-335 VOS Historic Burst -> 5999 Eur

Now consider that the Ibanez JSM-10VT isn't that much different from the JSM-100 and costs 1190 Eur.

I don't have any experience with these, but I do have the Ibanez AS-153, 969 Eur - and I say without hesitation that's a LOT of guitar. The tri-switch, which is an Ibanez thing, offers so many great sound options. Plus the guitar is comfortable, balanced, stable ... and hard to put down

My (humble) opinion is: if you want something saying "Gibson" go for it. If that isn't a major issue then - and since you're already on Ibanez ground - check their 335s. If they're good for John Scofield and Ben Monder, I'm not going to argue with them

After some 3 years playing almost entirely my AS153 I have nothing bad to say about it - quite the contrary, in fact.

...

and if you'll excuse going a little further .... it's also very difficult for me to justify the difference in price from my Ibanez AS153 to my low-end Epiphone Dot Studio (I like it better than the regular Dots) or to my 1-week-old Gretsch Streamliner G2622

(this one's a sweet).

...

To cut a long story short, there's a lot of 335-life outside Gibson.

**jads57** · 11-17-2016, 08:16 PM

In my opinion of owning many Gibsons over the past 45 years NOW is the best time Gibson is making guitars especially Memphis Gibson. Currently own a 2014 lowly ES-339 Studio which has become my main guitar for gigging! Also had a 2015 Historic 1963 ES-335TDC Figured model that was the best sounding 335 I ever played. I only traded it in because I want a 1958 ES-335TD w a larger profile neck. It probably will be a mistake but their consistancy is at an all time high!
Expensive they are, but you get the best of the originals at a fair price!

joaopaz · 11-17-2016, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

In my opinion of owning many Gibsons over the past 45 years NOW is the best time Gibson is making guitars especially Memphis Gibson. Currently own a 2014 lowly ES-339 Studio which has become my main guitar for gigging! Also had a 2015 Historic 1963 ES-335TDC Figured model that was the best sounding 335 I ever played. I only traded it in because I want a 1958 ES-335TD w a larger profile neck. It probably will be a mistake but their consistancy is at an all time high!
Expensive they are, but you get the best of the originals at a fair price!

In spite of my previous post I fully believe in it ... in all fairness, on of my main guitars - and also a great gigging one - is an entry level USA Gibson LPJ 2014. It's a joy to play and always in great shape

**Gilpy** · 11-17-2016, 08:54 PM

The 335 has always been one of Gibson's high-end models, and most will be well made guitars. But they can have tremendous variation in tone and feel (and weight). There can be really good ones from any era. If you can't play a prospective purchase, ask lots of questions about pickups, neck size, weight, and everything else.

Here's my '64!.....it's a good one!

**A. Kingstone** · 11-17-2016, 09:04 PM

I have a 79 Les Paul and a 94 Herb Ellis 165.

They never seem to complain.

**jim777** · 11-17-2016, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

In my opinion of owning many Gibsons over the past 45 years NOW is the best time Gibson is making guitars especially Memphis Gibson. Currently own a 2014 lowly ES-339 Studio which has become my main guitar for gigging! Also had a 2015 Historic 1963 ES-335TDC Figured model that was the best sounding 335 I ever played. I only traded it in because I want a 1958 ES-335TD w a larger profile neck. It probably will be a mistake but their consistancy is at an all time high!
Expensive they are, but you get the best of the originals at a fair price!

This was kind of what I was looking for. I've actually owned 3 different 335s over the years and a lovely Heritage 555, but I couldn't really bond with the Heritage (despite it being possibly the prettiest instrument I've ever owned) and none of the Gibsons did it for me either for very long. The last 335 I had was in the mid 90's (a Custom Shop abomination with stock EMGs I took in trade) so it has been a while since I've played one for any amount of time. For years I've thought I'm just attracted to the shape and not so much the guitar, but thought I'd give it one more go. I am, in fact, attracted to the shape

I have a few days off next week so will poke around shops in NYC and Philly and see what I see. If I find a nice one I will grab it, if not, I may get a Scofield or even a Godin Montreal Premier, which I didn't know about a week ago but seems very interesting (especially used for a grand).

**jads57** · 11-17-2016, 11:48 PM

So the elusive "Great Gibson Feel"which pretty much was basically 1950-1964 Yes they have made some higher end archtops beyond those years, but basically that's when the craftsman were primarily European(Mostly Dutch I believe) Fine Furniture makers according to then Gibson President Ted McCarty.
I think they have returned to this level ,especially under Mike Volts Memphis main guy. It also helps they have the technology to recreate these models on a very consistant basis. It's not dependent on one persons abilities like in the the past. Although I'm sure there is still a lot of hand work involved as well! But the most important thing they FEEL RIGHT!

**rob taft** · 11-18-2016, 01:37 AM

Gibson Memphis factory tour 2016

**GNAPPI** · 11-18-2016, 02:08 AM

Gibson could be better classified as having good and bad HOURS. Most are very good, some are not worthy of the name on them. Luckily the vast majority are very good and IMO well worth the money. Sure other brands are fine but as much as I like them they're not a Gibson.

The 335's are again IMO about the most consistent Gibson model I have played. I have and have had a LOT of Gibsons... currently I have two IDENTICAL black 335's (a neck damaged one was an impulse buy) spread by 10 years (1990 & 2000) in manufacture date. The only way for me to tell one from the other is to look at the neck.

The main differences I found on them was minor neck and fret sizes.

I love them, and that's the 335, 345, and 355.

**wintermoon** · 11-18-2016, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gilpy

The 335 has always been one of Gibson's high-end models, and most will be well made guitars. But they can have tremendous variation in tone and feel (and weight). There can be really good ones from any era. If you can't play a prospective purchase, ask lots of questions about pickups, neck size, weight, and everything else.

Here's my '64!.....it's a good one!

nice looking one, but 335's were not high end models

**Greentone** · 11-18-2016, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

"My personal 335, though, was a '65 Norlin-era guitar"

'69 and on was the Norlin era GT

Of course. I hit the wrong key...6 instead of 7. My Norlin 335 was a '75.

**Greentone** · 11-18-2016, 11:09 AM

I agree with Wintermoon. The 335, like the ES-175 and the Les Paul Standard, were brought out as player-grade guitars. They weren't for beginners, but for gigging/teaching pros.

They are all excellent grade guitars, but "no frills."

**Gilpy** · 11-18-2016, 11:49 AM

I meant "high-end" more in terms of quality than price, though a 335 has always been more expensive than many other Gibsons. It took me many years before I could afford one! Among the players I know, it's one of those guitars that's widely admired and desired.

**Greentone** · 11-18-2016, 12:23 PM

Gilpy,

Agreed. 335 quality is tops. The 335 is one of my 5 or 6 all-time favorite guitars.

**GNAPPI** · 11-18-2016, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Gilpy,

Agreed. 335 quality is tops. The 335 is one of my 5 or 6 all-time favorite guitars.

+1 I just about always have a 335 around.

It's funny, sometimes I'll play a tele, strat, Ibanez archtop, or even my sainted Tal Farlow or 175 after a few days or more then picking up the 335 is like coming home after a vacation.