10th Position Dot

[rsclosson]

I have noticed that many Gypsy Jazz guitars have a position dot on the 10th fret instead of the ninth. My Altamira is like that and I really love it. For whatever my opinion is worth, it makes so much more sense. I have been able to find my way around different keys and positions with this position.

I wish I could change all my fret markers to the 10th position.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Why does it make more sense? I guess I'm just used to where they are.

[rsclosson]

Why does it make more sense? I guess I'm just used to where they are.

You would think that after 50 years of playing I would be used to it as well, and I sort of am, but I just like knowing where the D/G position is insead of C#/F#. Just a personal opinion.

[Rob MacKillop]

FWIW, banjos also have the dot on the 10th fret.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You would think that after 50 years of playing I would be used to it as well, and I sort of am, but I just like knowing where the D/G position is insead of C#/F#. Just a personal opinion.

That makes sense.

[Woody Sound]

Why does it make more sense? I guess I'm just used to where they are.

It always made sense to me too that it should be at 10 instead of nine. Because if you're counting along on the e strings, 9 is the only one that's a flat or sharp. It doesn't affect my playing at all, but I've always wondered about it, the history of the placement.

[mr. beaumont]

It is interesting.

I'm so used to 9...I had to cover the marker at the 10th when I had a gypsy jazz guitar. Drove me crazy.

Weird...I'm completely fine on a classical with NO markings (not even side dots) so I didn't even think I used them...boy was I wrong.

[Woody Sound]

It is interesting.

I'm so used to 9...I had to cover the marker at the 10th when I had a gypsy jazz guitar. Drove me crazy.

Weird...I'm completely fine on a classical with NO markings (not even side dots) so I didn't even think I used them...boy was I wrong.

Me too - had to do that to my banjo.

[Ol' Fret]

>> I have noticed that many Gypsy Jazz guitars have a position dot on the 10th fret instead of the ninth. <<


Lots of dots to spot on the 10th fret on European guitars of all sorts. Later on, in the 50s, they changed to the 'standard' 9th fret dot, probably under the dominating influence of the guitar production in the USA, the largest winner of WWII. Just some examples:
- Schlaggitarren.de – Hersteller
- Schlaggitarren.de – Hersteller
- Richard Jacob "Weißgerber" | Gitarre Modell "Konzert Weißgerber" | Musikinstrumenten-Museum der Universität Leipzig, Inv.-Nr. 4882

On mandolins (when tuned in fifths), instruments that originally emerged in the Old World around the 17th century, it's more common to find the mark at the 10th fret. Along with the decline of the mandolin, the banjo and the tenor guitar (commonly also 10th) production numbers, the dot positions gradually changed, probably related to the upcoming of the steelstring guitar.

[Stringswinger]

I have owned a few 10th fret dot Gypsy guitars. While I eventually figured out how to not let it bother me, I did not like it at all. Copying mandolins (which are tuned in 5ths) was a mistake of the Euro makers. I am glad that they eventually got on board with American thinking.

Gypsy jazz Nazis (most of whom are of dubious ability) insist that you have to play a Gypsy jazz guitar with a 10th fret marker (even though Django also played guitars with a 9th fret marker), so most Gypsy jazz guitars (Selmer copies) come with a 10th fret marker.

The first owner of my Dupont MD-20 changed the marker to the 9th fret. If I ever were to meet him, I would thank him for it.

[rsclosson]

I have owned a few 10th fret dot Gypsy guitars. While I eventually figured out how to not let it bother me, I did not like it at all. Copying mandolins (which are tuned in 5ths) was a mistake of the Euro makers. I am glad that they eventuallt got on board with American thinking.

Gypsy jazz Nazis (most of whom are of dubious ability) insist that you have to play a Gypsy jazz guitar with a 10th fret marker (even though Django also played guitars with a 9th fret marker), so most Gypsy jazz guitars (Selmer copies) come with a 10th fret marker.

The first owner of my Dupont MD-20 changed the marker to the 9th fret. If I ever were to meet him, I would thank him for it.

Well I would like to think I am not a Gypsy Jazz Nazi. I also know that I am of dubious ability, but I am working on it. I just happen to like the 10th fret marker. However, I will not insist on it with anybody else.

[Stringswinger]

Well I would like to think I am not a Gypsy Jazz Nazi. I also know that I am of dubious ability, but I am working on it. I just happen to like the 10th fret marker. However, I will not insist on it with anybody else.

You are lucky. Most of us who are used to the 9th fret dot have had the experience of being off by a half step in performance on a 10th fret dot guitar. I have heard the argument that D makes more sense than D flat, but that means one is relying on fret markers too heavily. The only fret marker that should be important is the 12th. By placing the markers on the 9th and the 15th, it highlights the 12th. Classical guitars do not use markers at all. We know where the 12th is because the body/neck joint is there.

Many guys on the Djangobooks forum have railed against the 9th fret marker, some have even bragged about changing the markers on their Fenders and Gibsons.

The way I figured out how to not be bothered by the 10th fret marker was to not look. And that is a skill that we should all work on. Watch the videos of the great jazz guitarists. While they do look at times (we all do), they can play very well, all over the fretboard without looking.

[feet]

logic and reason aside, its just more aesthetically pleasing to have it at the 9th fret. so there.

[Guitarzen]

I've picked up a couple guitars over the years that had 10th position dots and every time they screwed me up. No reason to switch if you are already used to the 9th. I can jump up to the 10th or 9th or 11th or whatever fret I freaking need with no problems on my 9th fret dot guitars. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

[rsclosson]

Interesting how strong the opinions can be on the internet. I guess I like the 10th fret dot and enjoy using it on my GJ guitar. When I get back to playing my others I have no intention of changing them. I just find it an interesting concept that I adjusted to very quickly.

Since D minor seems to be a common key in Gypsy Jazz, it does make it pretty cool if you are adaptable enough to embrace the change.

[feral guitar]

i used black and white nail polish, black to cover 10, white to make 9.
i used a paper hole protector (paper reinforcment labels) to make them the right size and look

[MarkRhodes]

So why was the dot put at the 9th fret again?

I appreciate that those of us who are used to it want it to stay put. But why was it put there in the first place?

It always seemed odd to me: dots at 3, 5, then a skip to 9, and then 12.

[aboutIt]

It was put there to piss off nazis. No other reason necessary.

[bonnerj]

It was put there to piss off nazis. No other reason necessary.

[Ol' Fret]

>> Watch the videos of the great jazz guitarists. While they do look at times (we all do), they can play very well, all over the fretboard without looking. <<


Many guitarists would be wondering how the players of violins, violas, cellos, etc., can find the right notes without having frets or fret markers on hand. The ear is the answer... plus the stark training.

As a German I'm never afraid to debate, if necessary ad nauseam, on nazis, nazism, and what this really meant back in the days, or what its meaning and characteristics could be today - provided verifiable historical aspects are considered. Using the term 'nazis' in internet forums outside of such a debate context is not so advisable... well, someone was already thinking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I'd say that not few players of guitars in the Maccaferri-Selmer style are a tradition-conscious, conservative group. "Conservative" here is non-judgemental, i.e. not meant in a political sense.
These days the term "gypsy" in Europe is as politically incorrect as is that certain word formerly used in the US for characterizing Afro-American people. Roma, Romani and Sinti is what they call themselves. Myself being a "gadjo", a person that has no Romanipen (you can't learn or acquire it), the Roma don't care to communicate their way of talking and thinking to me. Nevertheless, my grandparents and their children personally helped the Sinti in South Germany, people that were terribly maltreated by the nazis, to get along after WWII. The surname of that clan was Reinhardt, they were close related to Django, and my grandma told me they were wonderful, friendly and cheerful people, despite all the public prejudices and the fate they had to suffer during the National Sozialism. I'm a gadjo for them, but they still have a special place in my heart.


Djangos legendary Selmer 503 has the dot at the 10th fret (beware, the cameraman was either so thrilled or just conceptless):

I guess this is the simple reason why many Selmer-style guitars today are made the same way: the tradition.
Also, in the past the guitarists in Europe played European axes, and the US guitarists American guitars. No problem for either group with the dots being at the 9th or 10th fret.
Today, the globalization is mixing it all, and we have to experience on the occasion of international trade agreements to be negotiated, how bitterly is fought around every single position, which is regarded to be the 'norm' by the respective nations.

[Boston Joe]

I like the symmetry of having the dots at 9, 12, and 15. It sets 12 apart, which makes sense.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

So why was the dot put at the 9th fret again?

I appreciate that those of us who are used to it want it to stay put. But why was it put there in the first place?

It always seemed odd to me: dots at 3, 5, then a skip to 9, and then 12.

Somebody rub off the marker at the 7th fret?




Note the symmetry around the 12th fret -- a three fret gap on either side. When it comes to block inlay, I like it on the first fret, too. Not because i can't count to one, but because that's a big empty space.

[rsclosson]

I find it interesting that a simple observation was able to invoke so many diverse thoughts and opinions. I like the 10th fret marker. In my case, it came that way on a guitar that I really dig so it ain't broke and I see no need to fix it.

I don't think we need to change every guitar to my standards as should we not force others to change to the 9th fret. Whatever works for everybody is what they should use.

The use of the term "Nazi" on the internet may be overused and even abused. Frankly it has been adopted to mean anybody who wants to force his opinions or preferences on others. There are grammar Nazis (frankly it drives me nuts to see an apostrophe misused on a plural noun when it should only be for possessives, but I usually keep my thoughts to myself on that for fear of being labeled one, but I digress...), Gypsy Jazz Nazis etc...
In the future I may use the word dictator instead.

Anyway, we have a world full of crime, poverty, starvation etc, so a position marker is, in the final analysis, a small thing.

[D.G.]

The 10th fret marker on my Dupont DM was changed by the previous owner to the 9th. Saved me the hassle and expense of having it done myself Everytime I play someone's guitar with a 10th fret dot I always get fubar in the upper positions. I have to close my eyes to play 'em!

On my classical guitars, I need a side dot at the the 7th fret minimum. On the guitar I went through college with I put a piece of masking tape on the 7th. It worked for me!

[aboutIt]

I don't have much issue with use of the term nazi, although I think applying it to the very groups that were persecuted is a strange usage, indeed.