tedious "what should I buy?" question

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 02:35 PM

Hi all,

I'm going to keep this very brief. 1945 Epiphone Zenith, $1100 (on Reverb: https://reverb.com/item/1195437-1945-epiphone-zenith); or 1939 Epiphone Broadway with walnut back/sides for more like $3300? Is the Broadway three times as good? Is it twice as good?

I've played the Broadway (and another 1946 Broadway) and quite like it. Never seen a Zenith in the wild. Any thoughts? Any third suggestions?

Thanks!

**sgosnell** · 09-12-2016, 02:59 PM

The Zenith was sold as a student model. It had a carved spruce top, but the appointments were plain. Single-ply body binding, no other binding. Pretty much a plain Jane model. Which to buy for me would depend entirely on the instruments. I can live without bling if it plays well and sounds good. YMMV. That Zenith's finish is a little rough, probably from the binding replacement, which indicates that it wasn't done all that neatly. Impossible to say how it sounds or plays, though.

**wintermoon** · 09-12-2016, 03:04 PM

the finish on the Zenith is flaking off. relatively common during the 30's for Epiphone, not so much in the 40s though it does happen. what is the condition of the Broadway?

**oldane** · 09-12-2016, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by gryllo

Is the Broadway three times as good? Is it twice as good?

Measured by what and on what scale?

With musical instruments as with anything else the law of deminishing returns applies. In addition, market laws apply. The right price is the price the market will bear. Sought after instruments from well established makers which are scarce will be more expensive than more frequently found instruments. The guitars made by Elmer Stromberg after 1940 are outrageously expensive because he, as a one man business, made so few and because they have become "cult" for collectors - and of course because they mostly sound great. The prices are typically in the 30-50K$ range. But are they ten to fifteen times as good as the Broadway you have your eyes on? It is for the person who actually buys it but maybe not for you.

Another thing to consider with instruments of that age is, that they may or may not be in good condition. An unplayable guitar with a warped neck is still unplayable, even if it's a Stromberg or a D'Angelico.

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 03:16 PM

The Broadway is in decent condition -- some finish wear on the neck in particular, none that I remember on the body. I got to know the tuners quite well during our brief acquaintance (weather has been weird lately) and they seemed a bit slippery, although they worked fine to keep the guitar in tune. It also had a replacement tailpiece.

In general I'm a fan of "student models," but not if there's a substantial difference in build quality. The only way to compare the two directly would be to order the Zenith and play it for a day, then potentially ship it back.

I realize too that the other Broadway I played, months ago, was probably a 17" model. That was the one I really, really liked -- but I don't think there's a student model of that...

**wintermoon** · 09-12-2016, 03:23 PM

someone played the Zenith to death, lots of finish wear on the back of the neck.
as for the Broadway, you can get replacement tuners that drop right in and I believe Frequensator tailpieces are being made again.
'39 and '46 Broadways both have 17" bodies, though the '46 will be maple

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

Measured by what and on what scale?

With musical instruments as with anything else the law of deminishing returns applies. In addition, market laws apply. The right price is the price the market will bear. Sought after instruments from well established makers which are scarce will be more expensive than more frequently found instruments. The guitars made by Elmer Stromberg after 1940 are outrageously expensive because he, as a one man business, made so few and because they have become "cult" for collectors - and they do mostly sound great. But are they ten times as good as the Broadway you have your eyes on? Only you can answer that.

Another thing to consider with instruments of that age is, that they may or may not be in good condition. An unplayable guitar with a warped neck is still unplayable, even if it's a Stromberg or a D'Angelico.

Oh, it's an impressionistic question. Obviously the only area where numbers apply is monetary. As it happens I did get to play a 1936 D'Angelico side by side with the Broadway (which suggests that I may actually have been asleep and dreaming, and this Broadway doesn't exist at all -- it was a pretty surreal afternoon). I would most certainly have paid $3300 for that guitar, without a second thought. But was it worth $13,000 to me? Is anything?

I agree with you about the collector economics, but this is within a single manufacturer's output and (roughly) a single era. I'm more or less hoping to hear from someone who's ever played a Zenith, because I have not, to get provisional ballpark-type info. Not to solve for X where X is a precise value multiplier.

**oldane** · 09-12-2016, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by gryllo

I realize too that the other Broadway I played, months ago, was probably a 17" model. That was the one I really, really liked -- but I don't think there's a student model of that...

IMHO, buying something cheaper instead of what one really wants is a bad idea.

FWIW, I have always ended up getting what I really wanted - and lost money by buying and selling whatever substitute for the real thing I bought in the first place. I have learned my lesson. If I don't have the money, I'd rather wait until I have scraped them together. That goes for guitars, photo gear, bikes, cars and everything else - within realistic limits of course.

As for Broadways, they do show up at dealers and on the internet ever so often, so with the one you have tried, it's not now or never. You may also want to check out the Epiphone Triumph.

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

IMHO, buying something cheaper instead of what one wants is a bad idea.

FWIW, I have always ended up getting what I really wanted - and lost money by buying and selling whatever substitute for the real thing I bought in the first place. I have learned the lesson. If I don't have the money, I'd rather wait until I have scraped them together.

In fact this is exactly why I am shopping this week.

You're probably right. Still... it's a lot of money.

**Greentone** · 09-12-2016, 03:42 PM

Apples and oranges. Most Broadways I have played are well worn because they were professional-grade guitars from a period when Epiphones were THE big-band instrument. By comparison, most Zeniths I have played have been lightly used because they were, for the most part, student-grade/semi-pro guitars.

This isn't to say that the Zenith isn't a great guitar. It is, frankly, a wonderful sounding instrument. The Broadway, however, is the shizz, from a period when 17"-plus guitars were the way to go in getting your point across. Most Broadways have a pretty insistent sound when strummed four-to-the-bar with medium-to-heavy-gauge roundwound strings in place. I was going to type Chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk, but truthfully it's more like CH-zing!-chzing!-chzing!-chzing!

The Zenith definitely gets the family sound, but it's not as authoritative. A Broadway (especially with walnut rims/back) or a Deluxe can really drive a rhythm section.

If I had no Epiphone, I'd be happy with either, but I'd be happier with the Broadway, all other things being equal. If I could get my hands on a Deluxe from the 40s...now that would be just about perfect.

**wintermoon** · 09-12-2016, 03:44 PM

the Broadway looks to be in pretty good condition.
the E on the pickguard is a 1950's feature, maybe the guard was replaced then.
the tailpiece looks to have been replaced w/another Frequensator.
even if someone here has played a Zenith, like all guitars they all sound different, so your idea of an A-B comparison is really what you need to do.
agree w/oldane that you might like a Triumph, pretty much the same guitar as a 40s Broadway save the trim.

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 04:03 PM

Thanks, all of you, and especially thanks for the correction on the Broadway size. I'm not sure why I misremembered it.

If I could get my hands on a Deluxe from the 40s...now that would be just about perfect.

Here you go!

It sounds like the consensus is that the Broadway might not be vastly better than the Zenith, but it is better, and getting what you want at any price is usually better than settling. Any dissenting views?

**Hammertone** · 09-12-2016, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by gryllo

I realize too that the other Broadway I played, months ago, was probably a 17" model. That was the one I really, really liked -- but I don't think there's a student model of that...

Originally Posted by Greentone

...The Broadway, however, is the shizz, from a period when 17"-plus guitars were the way to go in getting your point across. Most Broadways have a pretty insistent sound when strummed four-to-the-bar with medium-to-heavy-gauge roundwound strings in place. ….

@17 1/2" wide
The better pre-war, late '30s, Masterbuilt Deluxe, Broadway and Triumph guitars I have played are all excellent for fingerpicking as well. As good as any acoustic archtop ever built.

Here's what appears to be a stupidly good deal on a wartime Epiphone Triumph:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1942-Epiphon...sAAOSwL7VWnAXv

**citizenk74** · 09-12-2016, 06:08 PM

Very happy Zenith owner here. Mine is a '45 as well. Apparently it was made earlier, as it came with a simple trapeze tailpiece, which had a rosewood crossbar due to wartime metal shortages. We put quite a bit of dough into it to restore it to its' former beauty, visually and sonically. Candidly, I think that the "very good condition" in the ad is more than a bit of a stretch.

Zeniths a wonderful instruments. I love mine. But it's not a Broadway. YMMV.

Best of luck with your decision.

**sgosnell** · 09-12-2016, 06:16 PM

Then there's this Deluxe. Not from the 40's, but still...

https://www.archtop.com/ac_55dlxrg.html

**gryllo** · 09-12-2016, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Here's what appears to be a stupidly good deal on a wartime Epiphone Triumph:
1942 Epiphone Triumph Vintage Archtop Wartime Acoustic Guitar w DeArmond FHC C | eBay

Nice find! Looks like it had a few repaired cracks -- as do many, many excellent guitars -- and the blindingly white binding replacement looks a little odd, but that's cosmetic. Pretty enticing.

Here's the Broadway I played: Epiphone Broadway Acoustic Archtop Guitar, Vintage 1939 | om28.com The finish is crazed, and the neck binding was replaced, but it sounded good and loud and held its own next to the D'Angelico.

**pants** · 09-12-2016, 08:02 PM

My '46 Blackstone. It's plain. Pretty basic student model but fully carved and clearly taken care of. Just as an example of how the student models Epiphone was putting out at the time far outshine many of the professional models cranked out today. Great projection and tone in a bit smaller package.
I think it's pretty hard to put any kind of ranking on whole model lines when it comes to 70 year old guitars. There are so many variables in the life of the instrument. Beyond aesthetics, I would limit ranking to individual instruments played or heard side by side.

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**wintermoon** · 09-12-2016, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by pants

My '46 Blackstone. It's plain. Pretty basic student model but fully carved and clearly taken care of. Just as an example of how the student models Epiphone was putting out at the time far outshine many of the professional models cranked out today. Great projection and tone in a bit smaller package.
I think it's pretty hard to put any kind of ranking on whole model lines when it comes to 70 year old guitars. There are so many variables in the life of the instrument. Beyond aesthetics, I would limit ranking to individual instruments played or heard side by side.

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Nice Blackstone but only the top and neck are carved.
It has laminated back and sides

**pants** · 09-12-2016, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Nice Blackstone but only the top and neck are carved.
It has laminated back and sides

Argh! I have been careless with adjectives!

Honestly I hadn't known. It sounds beautiful and feels good and looks pretty nice. I tend not to worry too much about the minutia as long as those three criteria are met.

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**nopedals** · 09-13-2016, 05:14 PM

Epiphone pro models: triumph, broadway, deluxe, emperor. You can buy triumphs, even the cutaway models, all the time for 2K or less. There is no way that I would pay 3K for a broadway, or 4 figures for a student model (Olympic/zenith/blackstone whatever). Big difference in sound between the student and pro models. Same deal L7/L4 vs. L50.

Interestingly, the opposite holds true for laminate electrics. The student models hold their own, i.e., a circa 1950 ES-150 will go toe to toe with an ES-350 for sound at a fraction of the price.

I should add, IMHO.

**gryllo** · 09-14-2016, 01:48 PM

Oh but wait, maybe I should get this super-cheap L5! I bet the sound is "legendary," given the lack of bridge or strings ("Every effort is made to retain perfect detailing"). Wow.

It does look a tiny bit like this L4, but many guitars look like other guitars. There's a family resemblance, so to speak. I actually have a mild weakness for project-type listings like that, however, so I'm going to quit looking at it and work.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-14-2016, 02:10 PM

"I almost never see them come for sale."

**gryllo** · 09-16-2016, 08:24 PM

A similarly brief update on this: I went ahead and ordered the 1942 Triumph, which arrived an hour ago (Seattle -> CA). It's just amazing and exactly what I wanted, so thank you, Hammertone, for finding it for me. I owe you one! And thanks to the rest of you for all your advice, especially nopedals at #20. I'm sure I will find a use for the cash I saved.