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At 8K, My understanding is that the luthier is making about $50 per hour. That equates to 100K a year if they are in demand enough to work full time. That is pretty good for a self employed person with no employees. If that is not enough, they probably should consider a different line of work.
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
The only thing that I would take issue Marc with is this....
That equates to about $20 to $45 an hour if you subtract materials from the equation (forgetting fixed overheads and taxes!). I think your estimate is low and the going rate is more in the $50-$60 range. There won't be many luthiers in the future if that is the value we place on them.
This feels similar to the problem that working musicians face every day when seeking work...
How many luthiers can get over 8K for a guitar? Good for them if they can.
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08-15-2016 11:54 AM
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So the question remains, how do the Japanese do it? Offering first - class similar products for half the price? The question genuinely interests me. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
The only thing that I would take issue Marc with is this....
That equates to about $20 to $45 an hour if you subtract materials from the equation (forgetting fixed overheads and taxes!). I think your estimate is low and the going rate is more in the $50-$60 range. There won't be many luthiers in the future if that is the value we place on them.
This feels similar to the problem that working musicians face every day when seeking work...
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Not many Japanese, Chinese, etc. have hand carved tops & back and tend to use locally sourced woods. CNC can put out bodies/necks pretty fast, polyurethane can be applied in as little as one coat and can be UV cured. With UV curing poly needs no time on a curing rack (unlike the 2 weeks - 1 month cure for lacquer). Originally Posted by m_d
Poly is often applied thicker than the lacquer on a high-end archtop - so wood/binding prep on a poly guitar is not as critical.
Sanding and buffing poly doesn't require the experience that lacquer does as poly is much tougher and doesn't have the propensity for 'sand through' and 'burn through' like lacquer (if you hold a buffer in 1 spot too long on lacquer it generates heat which melts the lacquer which is known as 'burn through').
Time is money, as they say.Last edited by MaxTwang; 08-15-2016 at 02:04 PM.
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I am not going to argue the math with you but let's just say that I believe you are "optimistic" in your estimates of income. Regarding luthiers who charge >$8,000 for an archtop; forgetting Linda Manzer, John Monteleone and Ken Parker whose prices we won’t even speak about, some that come to mind are:
- Steve Andersen,
- Tom Bills,
- Mark Blanchard,
- John Buscarino,
- Bill Comins,
- Steve Grimes,
- Dan Koentopp,
- Mark Lacey,
- Steve Marchione,
- Ted Megas,
- Gary Mortoro,
- Bill Moll,
- Tom Ribbecke,
- Chuck Sanzone
- Bryant Treiner,
- Dale Unger,
- Gary Zimnicki
to name a few....
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Interesting, so what you're saying is that reputable Japanese makers, FJN or Seventy-Seven for instance, are basically cutting corners compared to, say, Gibson, which would account for the vast price differences at comparable labor costs? I was under a different impression but I may have been wrong. It's not the lacquer though, because there are several lacquered MIJ models available for well under $2k. Also, Gibson doesn't use CNC machines? Originally Posted by MaxTwang
Last edited by m_d; 08-15-2016 at 02:48 PM.
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* Kim Walker, > $20k (sold out for the rest of his life) Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
* Scharpach, > $20k
Bill Moll stopped making guitars a while ago. Makes precision guns now.
I believe Ribbecke is also wait listed for decades and his guitars are > $10k (not including the outsourced Halfling).
I think Trenier went some years building 1-3 guitars / year. Figure that one out.
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Daniele Ribbecke's RGC has been folded into Tom Ribbecke's workshop. Those "outsourced" Halflings have been put on hold indefinitely. You could still order one from Tom; $22000 was the quote.
The "outsourced" Halfling is a pretty cool guitar.
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Glad to hear that. His John Pizzarelli GoldTop is on my radar. I have been thinking 7-strings recently mainly because it makes some stretchy chords manageable. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
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Mark Campellone is doing pretty all right, pricing just under $8000 for the Special. I understand that the $6250 Deluxe is his most popular model. I believe Mark makes about 36 to 48 guitars a year. Say, he sells 36 to dealers for $3500 each. That makes $126 000 of Revenue a year. Not that great when you factor in all the business operating costs, insurance, etc..
Luthiery is a hard business. I don't envy luthiers.
As for high-priced luthiers, an honest lead-time tells you how well they are doing. For someone who flies under the radar Roger Borys has a 15- to 18-month lead-time on a laminated guitar; 24-month on a carved guitar. Bryant Trenier has an 18-month lead-time.
Compare them to footballer Wayne Rooney who makes $322 000 A WEEK.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 08-15-2016 at 04:33 PM.
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Exactly! It's a pretty short list, and several of those on your list don't build full time. They supplement their incomes with schools, books and how-to websites, repair work, or have retired from making guitars. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
There are of course some super-stars that make silly money. The same as in playing music. Taylor Swift makes $100M a year. That doesn't mean that playing jazz guitar is an easy path to riches.
That is really the problem for this business model. There isn't a broad base of buyers of custom instruments. The economies of scale mean that you can't build them and compete with the mass produced factory guitars. Just like you never see tailors making suits anymore. How can you compete with a mega-factory in Indonesia where 14 year-old girls working 14 hour days at sewing machines is the norm? A gigging musician can get a good "tool" made in China for $250 wholesale and $1,000 retail. There is no way a hand carved archtop could be made for that. Materials alone would eat up half the retail price.
So the market is small and mostly made up by people looking for "prestige" buys to hang on their wall and brag to friends about. Most of them want the brand. Imagine a young watch maker in Switzerland making watches that are more precise and more beautiful than any Rolex. Would anyone care? Who buys a Rolex for precision? If it doesn't say "Rolex", most people interested in top end watches don't care how good of a watch it is. If you got the name, like Ken Parker or Robert Benedetto, you can probably make a pretty darned good living. In fact, you are probably not building too many guitars yourself. You control a brand and supervise a couple or more talented young luthiers.
In the end it is what it is. Neither good nor bad. But the truth is most luthiers don't make a living, even if they do sell the occasional $6k-$8k guitar.
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Well, this thread has morphed into a broad discussion. But it's very interesting.
When Pete Moreno left Gibson, or should I say Gibson left Pete Moreno, he built custom solid bodies for a while. He told me he learned very quickly that he could make a lot more money repairing guitars than building them.
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$75-100 for a setup here in NYC. Not a bad way to make a living. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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What's the rent for a small workshop in Manhattan? Brooklyn? Queens? Bronx!! Nah, nobody goes out to Staten Island... Originally Posted by HeyNow
2 $100 set-ups a day x 24 work days. $4800 a month. $2500 monthly rent for a 100 sq ft place where someone knows where to find you. Utilities of $450 monthly. Board, lodging, transportation...You can't survive on $200 a day.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 08-15-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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Reading this thread one might assume that a luthier making and selling $8,000 guitars or just anyone making $100,000 per year would have a hard time getting by (sure if you move to NYC or LA or SF and pay the crazy housing prices, that 100K will not work too well), but I do not think that comports with reality. Shelley Park gets about 5K for her guitars (which are great by the way) and gets by (though I am sure she wishes she could get more). Michael Thames gets about 7K for his guitars and has supported a family for 35 years or so doing it. You will never play a better classical guitar than those made by Thames, though you can certainly pay more if you wish.
Karl Marx was correct in his theory about the surplus value of labor. To do really well in a capitalist system, you need to sell others labor at a profit. We can only charge so much for our own labor and there are only so many hours one can (or should) work in a week. While low wage Asian and Mexican labor might make a guitar cheaper, the best guitars are generally made in the USA, Europe, Australia and Japan. Team China makes better guitars each year, but I have yet to play a Chinese made archtop that competes well against American offerings.
I am sure glad to have some terrific Gibson archtops. They play great, sound great and look great. What more do I need?
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Who works 2 hrs / day? A setup is considered 1 hour so the $75-100 also extrapolates to per hour labor. Multiply that by a 40 hour week. Most independent luthiers have about a 1 week wait, so there appears to be a constant backlog. But, obviously, in real-life a luthier isn't just doing setups. Swap setups for repair work depending on how hypothetical you want to stay. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
The $100 hr was for a guy who has a very small shop in a nice part of Manhattan. Probably 80 sq ft. Works on guitars for a lot of famous people e.g. Keith Richards. He appears to be able to be pretty selective of the work he accepts as well. Flat out had 0 desire to fix some binding on my Guild.
I've paid $75 for people who work out of their home (one of whom worked at Mandolin Bros for over 20 years and has guitars, plenty of D'Aquisto's and old Gibson's, shipped to him from around the country). So, not much extra overhead.
Not sure how utilities would ever be $450 a month for a 100 sq ft area.
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A steal is what that TF was. It was the shading I'd been seeking too. Oh well, wasn't meant to be. Originally Posted by vinlander
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I've been surprised when people talk about "dream" guitars and they pick the higher-end Gibsons over options from small custom builders. I have never had the pleasure of playing an L5, LeGrande or Citation but I have played some of the custom Les Pauls, 175's, 335s and the like am often amazed to find quality issues that go well beyond a need for a setup.
I have played instruments from Victor Baker, Bill Comin's, Ed Shaefer, Holst, Benedetto, Campellone and many more and although I have not bonded with some of them for various reasons, quality has never been an issue. Most of the ones I've played have been used, some new.
i assume if I were to commission a new build from any of these builders I could expect none of the issues I am hearing about with Gibson.
I have a wonderful 175 so it is not like I am a Gibson hater and I love the look of an L5, but for me, my dream guitar would probably come from one of the wonderful builders out there.
QC can make or break a companies reputation. Gibson needs to step it up a bit.
To each his own.
Regards,
Rick
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Sounds like something a guitar buyer would have said in the 70's, doesn't it? Originally Posted by rickshapiro
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depends on the definition of quality. I agree that as art pieces, the luthier-built guitars are superior to anything gibson has (ever) made but in terms of tone, I have played few luthier built guitars that sound as good as an gibson L5 and frankly have never played a luthier built guitar that approaches a 175. You'd think it would be easy.
Originally Posted by rickshapiro
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Soooo, did Vinny ever hear back from Gibson?
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Not a word !
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That's just lame. When a high end customer complains, it should be a no-brainer that you do whatever you can to make it right as quickly as possible. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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They have no idea how badly they screwed this one up.
Vin, have you given thought to who your gonna move too? That's a tough one. I'd almost think it's impossible to make a completely clean break. Maybe only used Gibsons?
Hammertone's Hofner Chancellor looked pretty nice. They look like they are built like pre war Mercedes Benz's.
JD
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Guild......if they start making US archtops again.
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I've owned my own business for 33 years, I could not imagine not replying to a dissatisfied customer . . . 3 times.
Vinny, I think it's going to have to be used Gibsons or another yet to be determined brand(s).
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