Guitar Amp Terminology

[Dennis D]

I may be correct, but just to be sure - I guess I need to confirm what I'm looking for and not looking for, so - -

1. What does the term ' headroom' ( 'clean headroom ' ) mean, and

2. What does ' breakup ' mean ? ( 'distortion' ? )

This is only going to be me in my living room, with my L-5 w/ a humbucker, and I don't ever want any distortion - at all - at any volume --especially low volume.

So am I looking for all clean headroom at low volume, and is there anything else I should keep in mind ??

Thanks.

[Klatu]

Headroom - the level of volume reached without distortion. eg. Acoustic amps tend to have high headroom whereas rock amps tend towards lower levels of headroom.

[Hep To The Jive]

If you dont want any breakup you would need a ss amp, like Henriksen, or Polytone. There guaranteed would be no breakup at any volume. Also acoustic amps.

[Dennis D]

If you dont want any breakup you would need a ss amp, like Henriksen, or Polytone. There guaranteed would be no breakup at any volume. Also acoustic amps.

I'd never want be loud enough to break it up, I'm looking for full response at low levels and always was.

I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track.

Thx

[Alder Statesman]

If you dont want any breakup you would need a ss amp, like Henriksen, or Polytone. There guaranteed would be no breakup at any volume. Also acoustic amps.

True, but the Fender Twin has headroom and sounds so great.

[Hep To The Jive]

True, but the Fender Twin has headroom and sounds so great.

yeah of course, but at low volume? In a living room? I don't think he would go past 1, if even! And at such low volume tube amps like Twin don't sound that great.

[Dennis D]

yeah of course, but at low volume? In a living room? I don't think he would go past 1, if even! And at such low volume tube amps like Twin don't sound that great.

That's correct - -I'd never crank it. That's what I've been trying to determine.......what would give me the best low volume sound.....I had it with my old '60's Ampeg -- but that had one 15 in. speaker and maybe 30 watts.....maybe......

..but I never cared 'cause I never played it out......

..I sort of agree a solid state 10 or 12 in. would be ok, but somehow I'd have to find one with pretty basic controls...

I don't want to do this Peavey thing again, where no matter what you do, it doesn't have a 'flat' or 'zero'......I've seen it called a 'treble bias'......

...thanks......

[Boston Joe]

That's correct - -I'd never crank it. That's what I've been trying to determine.......what would give me the best low volume sound.....I had it with my old '60's Ampeg -- but that had one 15 in. speaker and maybe 30 watts.....maybe......

I've got a Dr. Z Maz 18 Jr. It's 18 watts in a 1X12 combo, but they also make it as a head so you can use any speaker/cab you want. It's got an absolutely luscious clean sound, and sounds fantastic at bedroom volumes. They also make a 40 watt version. It's got enough headroom that I've never managed to get it to break up at a volume that wouldn't send my neighbors running.

What's really nice is that it's got this thing called a "Cut" control. It's sort of like a presence control, but a lot more dramatic. You can read on their website exactly what it does, but it puts an edge on the sound. It doesn't really change the basic tone, it just adds something in the high end that makes the sound sharper. You can dial in as much of this as you want, and I find that a bit of it it really makes the amp sparkle at low volumes, even if you're going for a fairly dark tone.

The major downside of the Maz is the weight. The thing is built for sound, not portability. Weighs a ton.

[vintagelove]

yeah of course, but at low volume? In a living room? I don't think he would go past 1, if even! And at such low volume tube amps like Twin don't sound that great.

Just fyi, old fenders sound great at low volume. I have a 64 super reverb that on 1 sounds better than, well, anything I've ever heard.


There are some amps that don't play nice at low volume (mostly distortion), but old fenders aren't one of them.

[old tube]

I'm with the Fender Twin sounds great at low volume brigade.

My old 135 watt monster with JBL's is my lounge amp.

There's a depth and sparkle to the sound, even at very low volume, that to my ears just isn't there with smaller or solid state amps.

[MaxTwang]

How loud do you play? Are there others in the house? Are the neighbors close?

A Princeton Reverb might do the job, or a Deluxe Reverb (Deluxe can be loud for home use).

If sound dispersion is an issue then smaller speaker, closed back cabinet, front ported cabinet might help control the sound. I love an open back 1x12 or 2x12 but my spouse hears it clearly 2 floors up while watching TV (like a loud car stereo across the intersection - it seems louder outside my music room than inside). A Princeton Reverb is much better (1x10 open back), but front ported 1x8 works best to give me satisfying sound without bothering others (and with the door closed I can play later into the night).

It's a bit of an adjustment from the wonderful dispersement of a big open back cabinet, but less so than a divorce.

[Hep To The Jive]

Just fyi, old fenders sound great at low volume. I have a 64 super reverb that on 1 sounds better than, well, anything I've ever heard.


There are some amps that don't play nice at low volume (mostly distortion), but old fenders aren't one of them.

The point is... Twin to just play in a living room? I don't know what spaces you guys live in, but I would imagine there's much better options for an amp for that. And I do not like how it sounds at low volume. To be completely honest, it's not my fav, amp at any volumes. The only Fender amp sound I like is Bassman (and I guess tweeds, they are the same family with Bassman?) but for exactly the reasons OP doesn't.

[Dennis D]

How loud do you play? Are there others in the house? Are the neighbors close?

A Princeton Reverb might do the job, or a Deluxe Reverb (Deluxe can be loud for home use).

If sound dispersion is an issue then smaller speaker, closed back cabinet, front ported cabinet might help control the sound. I love an open back 1x12 or 2x12 but my spouse hears it clearly 2 floors up while watching TV (like a loud car stereo across the intersection - it seems louder outside my music room than inside). A Princeton Reverb is much better (1x10 open back), but front ported 1x8 works best to give me satisfying sound without bothering others (and with the door closed I can play later into the night).

It's a bit of an adjustment from the wonderful dispersement of a big open back cabinet, but less so than a divorce.

Heck no, I don't play loud.....it's a 1000 sq. ft home......one br is practice room........10 in. or 12 in. is more than enough......surprisingly the bass on this Encore is pretty good......but I'm fighting this ' chimey ' high all the time.....maybe it's the Chromes, and / or the bridge, or the pickup rattle at certain spots.......


......but ok keep the suggestions coming......and while I may not gig, I'll still have to lift it, sometime....

Thanks.....

[Runepune]

......but I'm fighting this ' chimey ' high all the time.....

You've tried lowering the guitar's volume a tad? I more often than not do this to smoothen the high end. Or back up on the tone control. Depends on how the beast is wired

[Woody Sound]

I'm with the Fender Twin sounds great at low volume brigade.

My old 135 watt monster with JBL's is my lounge amp.

There's a depth and sparkle to the sound, even at very low volume, that to my ears just isn't there with smaller or solid state amps.

I agree. But I think a lot of that has to do with that big 2-12 cab.

[Dennis D]

You've tried lowering the guitar's volume a tad? I more often than not do this to smoothen the high end. Or back up on the tone control. Depends on how the beast is wired

It's this new to me L-5 WesMo w/ a humbucker..... my old one was an L-4 CES, and I don't remember that thing being so tough to smooth out.......

I may just give up and take it my guy and have him set everything.....

[neatomic]

hep, you need a vintage47!!!..small but nasty

dennis d..you need an ultralinear era (70's) fender..(like old tube mentioned ^)..they are clean clean clean..practically impossible to distort without a gain/distortion pedal...many are heavy beasts..like the super twin reverb, the 135 watt twin, the bassman 135 head, etc...but unbeatable clean tone..at any volume!...just don't move'm..

cheers

[Dennis D]

.." Just don't move'em " is right !!

Thanks !

[Hep To The Jive]

hep, you need a vintage47!!!..small but nasty

dennis d..you need an ultralinear era (70's) fender..(like old tube mentioned ^)..they are clean clean clean..practically impossible to distort without a gain/distortion pedal...many are heavy beasts..like the super twin reverb, the 135 watt twin, the bassman 135 head, etc...but unbeatable clean tone..at any volume!...just don't move'm..

cheers

Hey, that's my ideal tone! Nothing too clean here, just how I like it! But I believe Dennis is looking for the opposite of that?? haha thanks for the video though.

PS Just noticed it was for me anyway, cheers!

[Dennis D]

So there's no question where I'd like to end up- -here's 'Sundown' - used to be able to get awfully close to this sound !

....my old '62 175, and my old Ampeg Gemini SVT w/ 1 - 15, a little reverb...done !! ....this song is still nearly perfect and then at the end the horns come in and ruin it !!.....( almost )...

Wes Montgomery...man oh man !!

[BeBob]

What kind of clean tone do you want? This is actually a complicated question because to my ears, all of the different power tubes sound different; for clean jazz I don't like an EL84 or an EL34 all that much because they sound too bright. I prefer the American tubes, and comparing them a clean 6V6 doesn't sound like a clean 6L6; I prefer the sound of 6L6 amps.

Then there's the question of whether or not you want the scooped midrange sound of the FMV tone stack (BF/SF and some Tweeds), or if you prefer the treble-cut type of tone stack found in the older amps.

"Get a Fender Twin" is a standard answer to the question about getting an amp that won't distort. As many people have mentioned, a Fender Twin is adequate for the job, but honestly speaking it is overkill for the living room environment. You don't need an amp that big to get loud cleans in a living room but that amp will definitely deliver the goods if that's what you decide to do with it.

I have a large collection of amps, including all of the various Fender Twins. They all get rotated through my living room. My two cents worth is that they're definitely not too big for a living room amp, but they are definitely more amp than I need for that application. So why do I use Twins? More on that later. First, let's focus on what it takes to stay clean:

IMO you can always stay clean with almost any BF/SF Fender amp if you just follow some simple rules:

First, don't overdrive the first amplification stage. ie: don't go too far with the guitar's volume control. Fender preamps are exquisitely sensitive to being overdriven by too much input signal. One of the best techniques to master in keeping the guitar tone clean is to roll back the volume on the guitar. Roll back the volume at least half way and you won't overdrive the amp's input. Run the guitar volume high and it's easy to dirty up the sound on a Fender. The first step to is to keep the guitar volume low enough so your amp's input won't be overdriven.

Second, don't overdrive the second amplification stage. ie: don't go too far with the amp's preamp volume control. When a BF/SF Fender runs with a 12AX7 in the first stage it is capable of delivering excessive amounts of gain if you run the volume control too high. Depending on your input level Fenders develop enough voltage output in the first stage to overdrive the second stage if you set the preamp volume around 5-6. Running too much volume on the amp's volume control will overdrive the second stage of the amp. The second step is to keep the amp's preamp volume control low enough that the first stage never overdrives the second stage.

By following those two rules, just about any BF/SF Fender will always stay clean, from the little amps to the big ones. Then it's just a question of having an amp with a big enough output stage to deliver the volume that you want. If you can't get loud enough, there's always a bigger Fender amp.

If you always want the amp to stay clean, then there's no reason not to own the biggest Fender amps, as they'll stay clean at both high and low volumes. The little Fenders stay clean at low volumes, but to stay clean at higher volumes requires moving to a larger amp.

Some people complain that it's hard to control the volume at the low settings on the amp (around three and below). I don't agree. It's easy enough to leave the amp on 3 and control the volume from the guitar. If you do that then it's easy enough to tame any of the big twins for use in a living room.

I have a large collection of Fender amps, everything in size from little 50s Champs up to the late 70s Super Twin Reverb. I probably have more Twin Reverbs than anything else, one of every model. All of them are in the regular rotation into my living room, and I have no problems with them ever being too loud while playing clean. I just pay attention to limiting the guitar's signal into the first stage, and the preamp's signal into the second stage, by keeping the volume controls set to a reasonable level. For the clean jazz application, the Fenders with master volumes are particularly handy as they allow you to further tame the voltage of the signal as it's fed to the power amp, giving you a third way to control clean volume while making sure that no stage gets overdriven. The rockers tend to hate the MV Fender amps, which is a bonus for us as it keeps their prices down.

For the ultimate clean Fender tone, I prefer the 6L6 amps. Although the bigger amps are great in terms of being loud and clean, most people don't really need a quad of 6L6 like you'll find in a Twin Reverb. A single pair of 6L6 will provide you with plenty of clean power if you just set the controls for clean. That makes any of the 40W 6L6 Fenders a reasonable choice.

With that said, I still prefer the Twin Reverb over the smaller Fender amps for a living room/practice application, primarily because the bigger Fender amps have controls that aren't present on the smaller amps. Most of the low-power amps don't have a Midrange control, and I like to have that, so I just play the bigger amps because IMO they're more versatile.

IMO it's easier to make a big amp clean and quiet than it is to make a small amp clean and loud.

[Boston Joe]

What kind of clean tone do you want? This is actually a complicated question because to my ears, all of the different power tubes sound different; for clean jazz I don't like an EL84 or an EL34 all that much because they sound too bright. I prefer the American tubes, and comparing them a clean 6V6 doesn't sound like a clean 6L6; I prefer the sound of 6L6 amps.

Matter of taste, I suppose. The Maz is EL-84, and I don't think it's too bright at all. Ditto for a couple of EL-84 based Mesas I've had. I suppose it's possible that I like a brighter jazz tone than some folks do. I think it's very nicely balanced, though.

[Runepune]

Matter of taste, I suppose. The Maz is EL-84, and I don't think it's too bright at all. Ditto for a couple of EL-84 based Mesas I've had. I suppose it's possible that I like a brighter jazz tone than some folks do. I think it's very nicely balanced, though.

I believe it's more a matter of the amp's design, not the power tubes themselves. I had a power amp that could take 6V6, 6L6, EL34 and more. The difference between the various power tubes when used with this same amp was minimal. At least when played clean. We're used to EL84 from VOX amps, 6V6 from DR, 6L6 - Twin, EL34 - Marshall etc. Then there's the speakers and cabinet design associated with these amps. I wouldn't judge an amp based on power tubes. Apart from headroom

[BeBob]

I own a big-name amp that is designed to take 6V6, 6L6 and EL34. I can switch between the output sections in real time. The amp was made by the company that had patented the power output switching paradigm.

It's no coincidence that when operating in the same amp, the different tubes sound more alike than sound different. Although a Vox, a Fender and a Marshall all sound very different, it's for more reasons than just the character of the tubes themselves. The circuits are very different, and the voicing of the amp is different. That voicing goes far beyond something as mundane as speaker and cabinet changes.

When you go swapping the different kinds of output tubes in the same amp, it should be expected that the tone will not change as much as if you go changing from a Fender to a Vox to a Marshall. That's primarily because when you switch the tubes in the same amp, the basic voicing of the amp's circuit never changes -- only the tubes are changed. The voltages remain the same, the high pass and low pass filters remain the same, basically everything in the amp that defines the amp's voice remains the same except the tubes. I don't think it's accurate to downplay the effect that the circuit itself has on the tone of the amp. There's just no way that the speakers and cabinets are responsible for all of the tonal change. If that were the case then you should be able to drive the same speaker cabinet with a Fender head, a Vox head and a Marshall head and get the same tone. We all know that doesn't happen.

With that said, the character of the tubes themselves changes quite a bit depending upon the operating voltage conditions. Take an EL84 for example. Run them at a plate voltage of around 400 VDC and they are stiffer and strident and have more of a big bottle sound. Run them at 300-320 VDC and they have that glassy bell-like chime that they're famous for. But in either case, they still don't sound like a 6L6. Personally, I think that all of the tubes that I mentioned have a different sound when played clean. Other people may not agree. That's to be expected because all of this is quite subjective.

[Klatu]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Bob.

An example of your insight regarding tubes as tonal inputs are the Rivera Amps. They are generally voiced for Fender Blackface cleans, yet they produce their sound using EL34 tubes.