Kenny's early ES 175

**Fred Archtop** · 07-31-2016, 01:21 AM

Dear fellow guitarists,

I've just found this nice picture of Kenny. Any idea on what he has mounted on the tailpiece ? It seems to be a 2 knobs system, probably volume & tonality knobs. But why then, since the 175 has already them factory mounted ?

Also I am surprised to see the jack input where it is. I thought it was like this only in prewar ES 150/250.

Any clue appreciated.

Kenny's early ES 175-back-v-176-jpg

Cheers

**lawson-stone** · 07-31-2016, 02:16 AM

Maybe a transducer under the bridge? This is a one-pickup 175, but there seems to be a wire coming from the bridge, which I imagine is related to the knobs on the tailpiece. I'm guessing a transducer that he mixed with the P90 at the neck. If so, he was a very, very early adopter of that sort of set-up.

**oldane** · 07-31-2016, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Maybe a transducer under the bridge? This is a one-pickup 175, but there seems to be a wire coming from the bridge, which I imagine is related to the knobs on the tailpiece. I'm guessing a transducer that he mixed with the P90 at the neck. If so, he was a very, very early adopter of that sort of set-up.

I would say that was too early. This was the mid 1950s. But there clearly is something. One of the wires from the "control box" (on the tailpiece) seems to be soldered to the tailpice. Could it be some grounding which could be connected to the ground of the studio system to eliminate hum from the P90? The photo is made in a studio and KB was working as a busy studio musician at that time.

**Little Jay** · 07-31-2016, 04:35 AM

I don't see any wire coming from the bridge? Pic doesn't show the regular input jack, so it's possible he's using that in the normal fashion and the mysterious device has nothing to do with amplifying the guitar. I go with oldane: maybe a grounding-device of some sort?

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

**Little Jay** · 07-31-2016, 04:39 AM

Here's the same pic showing he does use the regular input jack:

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

**hotpepper01** · 07-31-2016, 05:30 AM

Looks to me as if there is a kind of control box with volume and tone knobs mounted on the tailpiece, similar to the DeArmond type of control boxes. Look at the shadows at his right arm, there are indeed two output cables going from the guitar. I mean, why standing on stage with two cables if you only use one. Maybe the P90 pickup is internally output doubled and led through the endpin into the control box with volume and tone knobs into a second amp.

**Fred Archtop** · 07-31-2016, 06:24 AM

Deep thanks to all for your tips.

As Oldane says, it's a picture made in a recording studio, so Kenny certainly didn't use two amps. Grouding device would make more sense with the single coil pickup, always noisy.

The more complete picture send by Little Jay is puzzling me even more, with these two jack inputs. AFAIK, back in those times, no guitarist used a two amps/stereo system. This came much later with jazz-rock and other Metheny style musics. However, Hotpepper1 hypothesis is quite robust, two cables going out, so...two amps ????

Come on, we are closing to the truth...

Thanks and cheers.

**Greentone** · 07-31-2016, 07:07 AM

Wild guess... Early direct box to go into the board.

**Greentone** · 07-31-2016, 08:27 AM

An "Ampeg" (amplified peg "mic") is another good guess. Ampeg began its corporate history by producing microphones that sat on top of the peg on which upright basses stand. Hence, the name "Ampeg."

**Doctor Jeff** · 07-31-2016, 10:12 AM

This has to be another pickup, either a contact pickup or an internal microphone. It is wired through the tailpiece. Interesting modification!

Menorm for instance made some really cool pickups with external controls, including this one for "spanish guitar":

Kenny's early ES 175-2z9i5hy-jpg

Maybe this was installed under the pickguard?

This apparently was a Japanese company that made a variety of pickups, including magnetic pickups similar to DeArmond that attached to the guitar surface with 2-sided tape. The pickup or mic on Kenny's guitar would seem to be internal, or at least under the pick guard, judging from the picture.

**Doctor Jeff** · 07-31-2016, 10:15 AM

Here is the Ampeg pickup for bass BTW:

Kontrabass-Tonabnehmer | Jonas? Kontrabass-Blog

**Fred Archtop** · 07-31-2016, 11:01 AM

So...seems we got it. An Ampeg-type internal microphone with the cable that goes through the tailpiece.

Strangely, I never heard of such systems for guitarists, back in those times. If Kenny used it intensively during his countless studio sessions, this might have contributed to his famous sound as long as he used this ES 175. This should have been more well-known by afficionados unless Kenny abandonned rapidly this system.

Just my guess but a contact mike while playing loud with cats such as Kenny Dorham or Jimmy Smith must have been a nightmare as regards feedback issues. Maybe Kenny forgot this systems rapidely...Just my guess.

As usual, you are immensely helpful.

Thanks a million.

**Max405** · 07-31-2016, 11:45 AM

My guess is it's a grounding device too. I had a similar guitar and those pickups were noisey. They popped a lot. The engineer probably rigged something that eliminated the noise.

**vinnyv1k** · 07-31-2016, 07:20 PM

I know Kenny didn't like the 175 or a L5. He said they felt too small to him. Kenny is a big cat, 6'4. He always said the Super 400 fit him perfectly. I saw him around a year or so ago. His playing is still stellar. Last of the old school.
Tuck Andress told me him and George Benson came to one of his shows not long ago. After the show they all stayed up all night talking guitar. He said Kenny was a real class act not to mention GB too. Man to spend a evening with those guys...huh ?

**neatomic** · 07-31-2016, 07:44 PM

it's a dearmond 3000 piezoelectric transducer

Kenny's early ES 175-d3000-jpg

cheers

**Doctor Jeff** · 07-31-2016, 10:02 PM

That DeArmond sure looks like it, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how it would be installed. Interesting!

**Cunamara** · 07-31-2016, 10:26 PM

Pretty close with that DeArmond, but Kenny's has a switch on the control box next to the jack input. Maybe an on/off switch or a phase switch?

I had though DI box with the cable coming from the regular jack up to the box and then out to the board.

**neatomic** · 07-31-2016, 10:51 PM

???..this is lowly 50's tech!!! its a mic!! no di..no hum killer...no phase switches

he just looped the output cable through the strap end like all guitarists used to do

u can have one..cheap

https://reverb.com/item/1414361-vint...-pickup-in-box

cheers

**old tube** · 08-01-2016, 05:14 AM

Gibson did a classical Guitar with a ceramic piezo under the bridge .. the C1e, introduced in the late '50's.

I've got an early 60's example. Lovely guitar .. absolutely crap piezo!

Needs a preamp before a main amp to get any volume! no built in controls, tone is very bass heavy.

**robertoart** · 08-02-2016, 04:54 AM

We need an 'ask Kenny' thread

Wouldn't that be great!!!!

**Jabberwocky** · 08-02-2016, 05:31 AM

Could it be a control box for running the P90 signal to a mixing board that fed the headphones-monitor which KB seemed to be holding to his left ear?

**Herbie** · 08-04-2016, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by robertoart

We need an 'ask Kenny' thread

Wouldn't that be great!!!!

I thought this too. Guy lives on (85 years now) so why does not someone who has contacts ask this from him?

Is here anybody who knows someone who knows him?

Or should I say: what's his avatar here?!