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A few months ago I bought a Greco ES175 copy from the 70's that I love - it didn't cost me all that much (about 1/4 of a cheap Gibson!) however, there are a few things that I don't like about it. The small stuff I've been changing as and when I get the time, new strap button, a rosewood bridge, new tuners - this is all cheap fixes but the big ones are, installing dog ear p90s and possibly some bigger frets (or just a fret dress?) the frets are very small which isn't me preference.
The guitar cost me around £550 including import from Japan
£60 for new tuners
£15 for a bridge and strap button
but the pickups for a set of Lollars will be about £250 and then another £200 for a refret. Now I'm looking at a total of like £1100 which I could probably get a 'better' guitar for not much more.
I'm just wondering has anyone went down the route of upgrading a Greco instead of buying a Gibson? I don't even know a whole lot about the guitar! If anyone could shed some light that would be great - I'll post some pictures pre modification below :
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06-17-2016 06:39 AM
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I think your answer is right there. I say ignore the brand name, spring a few clams and make it your dream guitar.
Originally Posted by mattblair
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IMHO it kind of depnds on the mindset. If your thinking is "the cheap solution is almost as good as the real thing and a few mods bring me pretty much there" you will likely find yourself still longing for the real thing after all the modding. The modded cheap guitar can basically not be sold without taking a big loss and at the end of the day you spend more money than to bite the bullet and buy the real thing in the first place.
If the mindset is to get a good working axe and you don't care what is on the headstock thank buying cheap and modding is a very valid approach.
The other day I heard a jazz concert in New York and there was a guy with a 300$ Epiphone ES-339 or so. Did he sound worse than his colleagues who brought all the expensive vintage Gibsons L5's and whatnot on stage? ... No, he did not sound any worse. Once the band was cooking, it was all the same and only the player counted - and the guy was damn good. I guess there is nothing objective in choosing an instrument. Whatever makes one happy and is financially viable is good (IMHO).
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This needs to be the "sticky" message for all gear-related questions about "worth" (i.e., "Is a gibson/benedetto/marchione/epiphone/sears/fuchs/headstrong worth $_____?"). Originally Posted by FrankLearns
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Hi Mattblair,
Bottom line is, you have to do what works for you.
From the sound of it, you get inspired when you pick up that guitar. If you are, then make beautiful music with it.
My only advice is if you are satisfied now playing the Greco, I wouldn't go crazy and put too much money into it. If you can save your money, rat hole it and someday, buy the real thing. There is NOTHING like the real thing. I know the real thing is priced so far out of reach for a lot of people. If you have something you like, then stick with it.
I can assure you though, if you elect to someday own the real thing, you will realize that NOTHING compares. Nothing.
Enjoy what you got. Play it, and be happy.
By the way, your guitar is very nice. Its a very convincing copy of one of the greatest guitars ever designed.
Joe D.
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Actually there are clones and then there are "clones."
The Greco isn't just an ES175 copy. A 1970s Greco, Aria, Aria Pro II, and several others, were made in the Matsumoku plant in Japan in the 1970's. That was an incredibly good era and site for fine guitars. They are the original producers of what are called the "lawsuit" guitars: guitars that were so close to the "real thing" that US brands sued a few of them, mainly IIRC Ibanez, forcing their exported instruments to have slightly different cosmetics, though instruments sold in Japan retained their direct copy look. Back then, a great deal of work in the Matsumoku plant was still done by hand, by real luthiers in the highly respected Japanese tradition of skilled woodworking.
But the copying wasn't just in appearance. Their L5ces clones, for example, were, to be sure, laminates. But otherwise, the Aria L1000 (in Japan) or PE180 (exported) were astonishingly good guitars sold for far less.
These days, the Matsumoku copies actually sell at a premium. They are that good.
So sure, yours isn't a Gibson. And each of us is different, some really wanting the name and pixie-dust factor of a "real" Gibson. But your Greco is a finely made instrument. Before you replace the pickups, do some research. Some of the pickups in these Japanese 1970's guitars are much loved in some circles.
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When I got my Epi Zephyr Regent, (Peerless made) it was with the idea that I would upgrade the pickup and electronics. After playing it for over a year including gigs, teaching, and practicing, I have yet to change a thing. I get compliments on the tone and it feels great to play. The gold on the tailpiece is somewhat worn, but it doesn't bother me (much). Sometimes the name on the headstock calls out for upgrades that may not be necessary.
(Of course, YMMV)
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Well one thing that might be really important is:
If you go to a top Luthier for a re-fret and use Jescar brand wire in Nickel , EVO, or Stainless
AND get the size fretwire you really like- your Axe will likely have better fretwork than ANY stock Gibson and you will feel this and fly more freely when you play.
Most people would play it safe and use either Nickel or EVO Gold on an Archtop...Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-17-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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Agreed. Originally Posted by rsclosson
I don't care what name is on the headstock. I care about three things:
1. Playability
2. Tone
3. Aesthetics
The reason I place Playability before Tone is because if I can't play it, great Tone doesn't matter.
My small but tasty little collection includes:
1. Heritage H575 Custom
2. Peerless Monarch 16
3. Ibanez AF 125 Custom
4. Epiphone Sheraton II (1997)
Each of these instruments meets the three performance characteristics listed above admirably. They play great, sound great and look great! Although the Heritage is the Queen of my collection, I love and enjoy playing all of them equally.
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Great question by mattblair! I have done and wondered the same thing.
I just read every reply in this thread and realized I "liked" every one, Why? Because there is a ton of wisdom in this thread. Even though you all don't agree, I was reading each thoughtful reply and thinking, "yeah, good point".
I will share this. At one point, exceedingly busy with work I was down to one acoustic guitar: a new Epi Masterbilt. As my only axe, I played the hell out of that thing -- electric jams, alternate tunings, jazz standards -- hell, I used it as a drum on one home recording. I knew every millimeter of that neck and could make it sing.
Lately I have been on a binge of sorts. The AE-1200, Washburn J-6, Crestwood Howard Roberts, Seventy-Seven Stork Jazz, and to Joe D's point, my dream of a Bozeman L-7C was realized. I can pick up any one of them and sigh a smile of tonal bliss.
My problem is that while I am stupid flush with guitars right now, I can sometimes find myself missing the familiarity and connection I still have with my Masterbilt. The newness of a new guitar can be great as it influences what and how I am playing, which is half the fun of a new axe, but really connecting with your instrument pays so many dividends over time which is hard to focus on with a newly bloated stable.
Stephen Stills, right... "Love the one you're with"?
Yup, it's the operator; yup, a few special guitars have that mojo (sometimes regardless of pedigree); yup, the real deal can both fail to live up to or exceed expectations; and, yes, upgrades allow the guitar to become yours.
My solution? I cased a few of the new guitars and am right now just playing the L-7C (with a smile)Last edited by h1pst3r88; 06-17-2016 at 10:54 AM.
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The fact is that to a LOT of players a stock Gibson is not good enough and MANY owners of genuine Gibsons see fit to "mod" them.
For a reality check there are no mods that:
1. Are unlikely to make the VAST numbers of gits actually sound like the original.
2. Add no resale value UNLESS you find a buyer that would have done what you installed.
In reality to many like myself the retail value may be LESS... I know I do not want to be fixing up garage "techs " repair efforts.
That said if none of the things above bother you the mods made to suit you are all that matter.
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Matt, that's a good question.......
I personally would hesitate having the same money in upgrades as the cost of the guitar itself...........maybe if you increased the base money you spend, you'd have less in upgrades and then the total costs incurred would be less too....some times you have to know when to stop !
Now, that having been said - -
It sounds like you're able to do a lot of these mod's yourself and if that's true, good for you !
I would just spend some time finding a good luthier - not a music store string changer but a luthier.....he'll be worth what you pay him, and once you find out where he's coming from and what to look for etc etc, you'll know which miracles he can work - -and which ones he probably can't.......and yes, if he's good he will be able to work some magic !!
Good luck, Matt, and worse case, even if you stop the mod's at this point w/ the Greco, you can hang on to it, and always have a guitar to ' play ' and to 'play around' with.
Hope this helps.
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I think the type of guitar factors in. If it's a solid body - say a Tele - as long as it feels good, you can pretty much get it to sound any way you want with hardware and electronic changes.
I think with carved-top archtops, the construction of the body is an important factor. Semi-hollows are probably somewhere in between.
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A lot of the fun with guitars is the pursuit of happiness .... there's a lot of enjoyment in the journey itself
I'm a sucker for brand names and to my hands and ears the Gibson/Fender/Martin pixie dust seems real ..... especially the Gibson stuff when they get it right
But there's a lot of great less expensive guitars out there without the big historic brand names on the headstock and turning one of them into your guitar is double plus good in its own right
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Much agreed. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
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What mattblair has is a 'lawsuit era' guitar, which is a collectible guitar and possibly better playing and sounding than a Gibson of the same era. The last pic shows the subject of Gibson's lawsuit: The font used, the peg head shape and the crown inlay are violations of Gibson's copyright. The true irony of the lawsuit era guitars is they may have violated visual copyrights but these were often better guitars than Gibsons of the same era, a situation that has led to Ibanez, Greco, Yamaha and others being held in high regard to this day.
matblair's guitar is collectable as it is, and with all collectables changing pickups or re-fretting may devalue the instrument. The question to the OP is: Is the guitar a keeper & and player, or is it a guitar for now and you plan on getting something different in the future?
If you love the guitar and plan on keeping it then mod it as you see fit. If you plan to sell at some time then preserving the value of the Greco might be in your best interest. If you do mod the Greco then save the parts as you may want to return it to stock sometime in the future; re-fret is OK if the guitar needs it and you don't stray too far from the original fret size.
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This is exactly why I am scalloping the neck and installing a Roland GK midi pickup on my L-7C. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Seriously, is Gibson asleep at the wheel ;-)
(*no offense GNAPPI, I just cracked myself up thinking about a GK pickup on an L7).
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It is worth nothing that it is a "Gneco" version logo as opposed to the "Greco" logo.
That puts it between 1971 and late 1975. I bet you have no serial number on your 175? It was made around the same 4-year span as my Howard Roberts.
Great guitar, and as MaxTwang said, quite collectible as is.
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As it happens, I've just bought a Greco ( lam top L5 clone), specifically for gigging. A previous owner had installed a new harness, with switchcraft jacks etc, and classic 57s. The looks don't hurt - it's a very good copy, with the torch inlay and everything - but I got it for the relatively mundane reasons that I don't want it to feed back as much as the real, carved-top article does, and because I much prefer the 243/4" scale of these copies - I can play better on the shorter scale. The electrical mods made little difference, apart from the hope of increased reliability - my particular experience is that changing pickups won't and can't alter the fundamental character of the instrument.
I have some very good guitars; a couple of Gibsons, L4C and ES350t, and a couple of Slamans with carved tops, but these great instruments lose much of their 'magic' in a gig situation, when ( as noted above) it's 99% what you play that counts, not what you're playing it on. The older I get, the more I feel that the "Gibson difference' ( and yes, there is one..) is best appreciated in solo playing, at home, or in a quiet chord-melody setting. But in a combo situation on a live gig, it's hardly discernible from the sound a good 70s copy makes, when mixed with the sounds of other players.
I have spent a few hours on this guitar; not on the pickups, which is where many might think to start, but on the parts that matter for playing the thing: frets ( dressed, crowned) nut ( re-slotted) bridge ( replaced) truss rod ( adjusted). The rest can look after itself; I know from experience that mods generally don't achieve the hoped-for result, for me anyway. On the other hand, improvements to playing action are essential for a guitar that one is going to take out and play.
To the OP: I'd get it refretted and set up, so that it plays well, but not spend anything else on it.
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I've not seen a serious L5ces copy from japan that had the shorter scale. That's interesting. My Aria PE180 has the 25.5" scale. What exact model is your Greco?
I have a seriously unhealthy interest in this subject!
Originally Posted by Franz 1997
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I've always felt exactly the same. Originally Posted by jazz.fred
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As MaxTwang, Lawson-Stone and others have said, we're talking about lawsuit guitars. They wouldn't have sued if there was no threat. Akin to the Zeppelin/Spirit thing, there are countless others who may have a similar vibe, but Zep is a regal target. I say play that Greco and let the music grow. Let it blossom, let it flow...
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Greco L100S from 1978, cherry s/b., Fujigen made. 24 3/4" scale, spruce lam, very close copy, apart from poly finish of and scale length of course..I am lucky enough to know another player who went through a serious L5 copy obsession a few years ago - he bought the Greco, the Aria PE180, and a couple of others. Why the shorter scale, I don't know; it happens to suit me very well, but OTOH makes the guitar a less accurate L5 copy. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I helped him downsize..
I understand a lot of the Ibanez L5 copies also had shorter scales; asking prices for the Ibanez L5s have got pretty silly, whereas the Aria and Greco copies are still more reasonably priced for what they are. Apart from the logo and some small cosmetic differences, they seem to be the same guitar - although I believe Ibanez also did a carved -top L5 clone too.
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They did. Our very own Bob has one almost just like the carved version for sale right now with a floating Charlie Christian from Pete Biltoft. It's the 2471 (solid top) as opposed to the 2470 which was the same guitar but carved.
-Chris
*I am haggling with Bob to buy his but he's not interested in the salami sandwich that I am offering as payment. But Bob, it has dijon mustard!
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Thanks for answering my question! I have heard that Greco was definitely among the best of the lawsuit copies. If you really like the short scale, I'd say the L100S Greco is an answered prayer: the L5ces vibe and the short scale for many players would be a critical mass of excellent guitar! Originally Posted by Franz 1997
I'm on the fence on scale length. I love my PE180 and Epiphone Broadway, with the longer scale, but the ES175 is also appealing. I hope I can keep living in both worlds.
Sounds like you have hit on exactly the right guitar!
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