Attenuators

**Harri** · 03-26-2016, 04:45 PM

Hi, all!

Has anyone used an attenuator with a tube amp to get that Kenny Burrell-ish breakup at lower volumes?
I have a rather loud tube amp (Gibson GA50 replica). It gives me a very good tone but I feel like I can't really get the tubes and speakers working at jazz club volumes.

Anyone else had such a problem? Tried an attenuator?

**MaxTwang** · 03-26-2016, 05:26 PM

Attenuators are good if you only need to bring the volume down a moderate amount, using an attenuator to bring a cranked 50 or 100 watt amp down to bedroom levels will probably not be satisfying. For getting a light breakup it may work, I've used one with a Fender Deluxe and Vox AC-15 to take the volume down a bit; the Deluxe sounded better with a reactive load, the Vox sounded equally good with a reactive or resistive load.

An attenuator with a 'reactive load' should give you a better feel as the load varies with frequency like a speaker, the alternative is 'resistive load' which uses a resistor with a constant load.

Weber's MASS attenuators use an actual speaker motor (a speaker w/o the cone) for a reactive load, are reasonably priced and sound good for bringing the volume down a bit.

Another option would be a re-amper like the Bad Cat Unleash which uses a reactive load for your amp then re-amps with a solid state power amp giving you more consistent tone & feel over a wider volume range.

**yebdox** · 03-26-2016, 06:23 PM

I've heard good things about the reactive load boxes from Suhr. I had a Weber Mini-mass and while inexpensive, I can't say I really thought it sounded good enough for me to use on a regular basis, with any kind of amp that I have and it went to ebay.

I think you might have better luck with some type of boost or overdrive pedal with the gain turned up and the volume down. I love my RC Booster for everything. The new Scott Henderson model has 2 gain levels available, but the volume and tone controls are shared. A single version should be just fine (I've had all 3 versions, still have a single and the new dual.) Great pedals for stacking for higher gain, as well, really adds a nice sparkle that you wish you could just get with your amp!

**jzucker** · 03-26-2016, 07:28 PM

a better bet is a good master volume. I've used the trainwreck style master volume in fender and marshall amps. Not sure if it'd work on the gibson circuit. I've used attenuators before and I actually prefer a good MV.

**ghoststrat** · 03-26-2016, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by yebdox

I've heard good things about the reactive load boxes from Suhr. I had a Weber Mini-mass and while inexpensive, I can't say I really thought it sounded good enough for me to use on a regular basis, with any kind of amp that I have and it went to ebay.

I think you might have better luck with some type of boost or overdrive pedal with the gain turned up and the volume down. I love my RC Booster for everything. The new Scott Henderson model has 2 gain levels available, but the volume and tone controls are shared. A single version should be just fine (I've had all 3 versions, still have a single and the new dual.) Great pedals for stacking for higher gain, as well, really adds a nice sparkle that you wish you could just get with your amp!

Can the Suhr RL be used as an attenuator? I thought it was just a load box.

**Drifter** · 03-26-2016, 09:01 PM

Don't like attenuators either. They suck all the beauty out of your guitars tone. A Master Volume is the best solution, a tube overdrive pedal like the Effectrode Tube Drive the second best. Imho of course.

**mad dog** · 03-26-2016, 10:17 PM

What Jack and Drifter said. I've had good luck with certain master volumes, have yet to use an attenuator that worked as well for my needs.
MD

**vintagelove** · 03-27-2016, 12:10 AM

I can't see why anyone at this point would go with anything other than the fryette powerstation.

its essentially what evh was doing with his Marshall. Knock the level down, runs through fx loop, into a 50w tube amp.

So not only can your hundred watt Marshall purr like a kitten, your 5w champ can roar.

Sounds damn near transparent.

**MaxTwang** · 03-27-2016, 01:05 AM

A post phase inverter master volume, aka PPIMV, might help but just throwing a MV in any amp does not always produce desirable results with preamp only distortion and the OP might not want to modify the amp. A pedal would be a better choice but would color the tone. I assume the OP just wants a hint of breakup (and won't be doing any Black Sabbath tributes).

The Fryette Powerstation is a good thought and is a tube version of the Bad Cat unleash which also might work - both should also give the ability to put effects after your amp ( delay or reverb).

Another option is using a variac to reduce the AC voltage to the amp, thereby reducing the voltages in the amp. The amp will not be as loud and the preamp AND power amp will breakup easier. The only possible downside with a variac is the tube filaments also run at lower voltage which might reduce tube life a little, then again the lower voltages on the tube's screen, plates and anode will increase tube life so it may be a wash.

And, if you are just trying to take the volume down a bit at a gig an attenuators will also work.

**rabbit** · 03-27-2016, 09:24 AM

I am ignorant.

Please inform me: how did Kenny Burrell get that tone?

(Love his work, he seems to be a Prince, also.)

**Bosko** · 03-27-2016, 10:27 AM

I tried attenuators and power scaling circuits and I was underwhelmed, although I was looking for more of a driven amp than what you are looking for. Besides a MV, I would think you would be able to get close to what you want with one of the cleaner OD pedals since you can control gain and volume. Some pedals let you blend a clean and over driven channel (like an old Voodoo Lab sparkle drive).

**Double V** · 03-27-2016, 10:41 AM

my old '64 deluxe sounds awesome at 5/6 volume. Love the break up.
I use a Fryette Power Station. Enhances an amp without tone loss.
check it out: *****SOLD OUT***** Power Station® Integrated Reactance Amplifier® - Fryette Amplification

**MaxTwang** · 03-27-2016, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bosko

I tried attenuators and power scaling circuits and I was underwhelmed, although I was looking for more of a driven amp than what you are looking for. Besides a MV, I would think you would be able to get close to what you want with one of the cleaner OD pedals since you can control gain and volume. Some pedals let you blend a clean and over driven channel (like an old Voodoo Lab sparkle drive).

Which power scaling? I built a couple Hall Lil Devils and Hall's Variable Voltage Reduction is great; although the amps was designed to be a low power amp with power scaling.

**Bosko** · 03-27-2016, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by MaxTwang

Which power scaling? I built a couple Hall Lil Devils and Hall's Variable Voltage Reduction is great; although the amps was designed to be a low power amp with power scaling.

I asked John Suhr to install a London Power Scaling unit in one of my amps. He was just starting to develop his Badger amps that would incorporate power scaling. It worked, but i wanted a fully cranked amp at levels that would not annoy my neighbors and their dogs. I think it was a Dr Z but I can't remember because there have been so many lol. Never sounded as good as an old Silvertone amp I had.

John let me tour his facilities and check out the guitars being built and amps in R&D - very generous of him.

**diminix** · 03-28-2016, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Harri

Has anyone used an attenuator with a tube amp to get that Kenny Burrell-ish breakup at lower volumes?

Did you consider to try a cabinet containing speakers with adjustable effeciency, like Eminence Maverick?
I am using a Palmer CAB112MAV, and it works great without installing an additional heating to my living room.

Since I hear my guitaristic future in solid state driven clear tones and would like to have a smaller 10" cab, I am going to sell my Palmer. So--if your in Germany or somewhere around...

Robert

**MaxTwang** · 03-28-2016, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bosko

I asked John Suhr to install a London Power Scaling unit in one of my amps. He was just starting to develop his Badger amps that would incorporate power scaling. It worked, but i wanted a fully cranked amp at levels that would not annoy my neighbors and their dogs. I think it was a Dr Z but I can't remember because there have been so many lol. Never sounded as good as an old Silvertone amp I had. John let me tour his facilities and check out the guitars being built and amps in R&D - very generous of him.

And there is part of the problem, possibly a big part. Part of a cranked sound is perception based on psychoacoustic, also when an amp is cranked the speaker and cab are contributing to the sound in ways they don't at lower volume.

Most people use attenuators and power scaling in an attempt to get cranked tone at bedroom volume, which isn't going to happen, modelers are better for this. The OP wants a turned up but still mostly clean sound at a lower volume, that may be possible if he's just looking to shave a few db's.

**jzucker** · 03-28-2016, 09:42 AM

i agree max, the axefx II is fantastic for this. The nice thing is that you can crank the amp all the way up and just lower the output levels but you can also change the power supply voltages (like a variac) , change power tubes, and do stupid stuff that would kill an ordinary amp such as run 6V6 tubes at 550V.

**Harri** · 03-28-2016, 02:13 PM

Thank you all for such informative replies!

Those FDM speakers look very interesting, I'll look more into that… How do you think it would work together with a regular 8" speaker? Like the original GA50, my combo has a 12" speaker and an 8" speaker.

I'm looking for the simplest solution. I wouldn't like to carry a power attenuator to jazz gigs.

I'm carrying a HOF Mini with bad grace already.

**MaxTwang** · 03-28-2016, 04:33 PM

You would loose the balance between the 12 and the 8, with the 8 becoming dominant.

What is the impedance of the 2 speakers and what impedance does the amp 'see'? This might affect your opinions.

Dr Z makes the Brake Lite attenuator that can be mounted in the cabinet.

**yebdox** · 03-28-2016, 04:42 PM

Can the Suhr RL be used as an attenuator? I thought it was just a load box.

My bad, I thought you could, but it looks like the output to a cab disables the internal load. Sounds like it would be great for recording, though, or through a PA. No direct experience.

**ghoststrat** · 03-28-2016, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by yebdox

My bad, I thought you could, but it looks like the output to a cab disables the internal load. Sounds like it would be great for recording, though, or through a PA. No direct experience.

I asked because I got one in the mail on the same day. I've been working with it while doing some recording, and I'm pretty happy with it. It's taking some fiddling to get it configured, but I expected that. My path is LoneStar -> Suhr -> Digi 003 -> Pro Tools with Wall Of Sound III plugin (power amp disabled in plugin), and trying out some of the vintage Fender virtual cabs, but I have a bunch more IR's to try out, too. I figure it'll take me a few weeks to get exactly what I want, but it's already taken me further than I was. Over the upcoming weekend I'm going to do a serious test between the Suhr, Guitar Rig 5 Pro, and just regular 'ole DI. I've been playing DI into Pro Tools long enough that I can get an acceptable tone (to me) that way. From there I used to dress it up with Guitar Rig when I needed overdrive, etc. I decided to get a load box so I could use my pedals and amp (since I really love this thing).