Stuffing F-Holes to Fix Feedback Issues

**oldane** · 03-01-2016, 04:45 PM

Oops, accidental double post (see the post below).

**oldane** · 03-01-2016, 04:50 PM

Sometimes when one runs into feedback problems one must throw in the towel.

As Bob Benedetto told the story to "Just Jazz Guitar" almost 20 years ago, Jack Wilkins had feed back problems with his Benedetto Fratello. He looked up Bob in his Stroudsbourg workshop and they considered different options. They ended up throwing in the towel - literally. Bob went upstairs to the familys bathroom and picked up a big towel which they managed to squeeze into the guitar through one of the F holes. According to Bob, it worked.

**jzucker** · 03-01-2016, 04:52 PM

That's what Martino has done in recent years. His tone with the semihollow going into the Clarus sounds dead to me compared to the tone on those albums. His modern tone compared to El Hombre is rivaled only by clapton's tone now compared to the bluesbreakers...

Originally Posted by oldane

Sometimes when one runs into feedback problems one must throw in the towel.

Almost 20 years ago Jack Wilkins had feed back problems with the Benedetto Fratello he uesed at that time. He looked up Bob in his Stroudsbourg workshop and they considered different options. They ended up throwing in the towel - literally. Bob went upstairs to the family bathroom and picked up a big towel which they managed to squeeze into the guitar through one of the F holes. As Bob told the story to Just Guitar Magazine, it worked.

**wintermoon** · 03-01-2016, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Martino's tone on those early albums is to die for. When I stuffed my L5 during the same period, I went "light" and only bought a 5 yard length of the upholstery stuffing and Martino stuck his finger in the F-Hole and told me it should be as hard as a rock.

Hard to argue with that tone. Listen to his tone now and his tone on Lean Years or El Hombre. And remember, that tone scaled to *ANY* volume level.

The benson method is very different because it does not change the sound of the guitar through an amp much if at all whereas the martino method does. However, f-hole tape doesn't solve the problem for extremely loud situations. The martino situation does. Back when I had my Ibanez Metheny PM-120, I stuffed it with 5 yards of cotton (it's a smaller instrument) and I used that guitar on some rock and fusion gigs and ZERO feedback. It sounded great too.

Pat's sound today vs. what it was then has more to do w/using full size/depth archtops then as opposed to the Gibson and Benedetto Pat Martino models he's been using in recent years, rather than just stuffing.

**rkwestcoast** · 03-01-2016, 05:21 PM

Have used Doug's Plugs & they are great - however - since getting a Mambo 10" wedge have had very few problems with feedback - even when playing at volume

**jzucker** · 03-01-2016, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Pat's sound today vs. what it was then has more to do w/using full size/depth archtops then as opposed to the Gibson and Benedetto Pat Martino models he's been using in recent years, rather than just stuffing.

Exactly, thanks for proving my point./

**John A.** · 03-01-2016, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

That's what Martino has done in recent years. His tone with the semihollow going into the Clarus sounds dead to me compared to the tone on those albums. His modern tone compared to El Hombre is rivaled only by clapton's tone now compared to the bluesbreakers...

I think my favorite Martino tone is on Exit, which seems sort of half way between the El Hombre tone and the more recent semi-hollow tones. Any idea what guitar that is?

John

**wintermoon** · 03-01-2016, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

I think my favorite Martino tone is on Exit, which seems sort of half way between the El Hombre tone and the more recent semi-hollow tones. Any idea what guitar that is?

John

I think it was his Koontz

**jzucker** · 03-01-2016, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

I think it was his Koontz

also stuffed!

**lawson-stone** · 03-01-2016, 07:47 PM

So there seems to be a tradition of taxidermy in jazz guitar playing.

I guess it's kind of a midway point between a hollow body and a solid body... kind of a mushy body?

You could also spray foam inside the guitar. That stuff that gets used to plug leaks in masonry or where pipes go through irregular spaces. It comes out like shaving cream and then expands into this light dry foam that expands to fill whatever space it's in.

That might really work!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012UP804?keywords=spray%20foam&qid=1456875994&re f_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

**John A.** · 03-02-2016, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

also stuffed!

Isn't stuffed koontz some sort of traditional eastern European food?

John

**cmajor9** · 03-02-2016, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Stuffing the guitar was the only solution. And it sounded great. I actually preferred the stuffed sound. Much like the clip I posted above.

If this is true, how long will it be until some enterprising manufacturer offers their hollowbody guitars "pre-stuffed". Maybe Gibson could research exactly what Pat Martin used on "EL Hombre" and offer 'historic' pre-stuffing?

**pingu** · 03-02-2016, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

So there seems to be a tradition of taxidermy in jazz guitar playing.

I guess it's kind of a midway point between a hollow body and a solid body... kind of a mushy body?

You could also spray foam inside the guitar. That stuff that gets used to plug leaks in masonry or where pipes go through irregular spaces. It comes out like shaving cream and then expands into this light dry foam that expands to fill whatever space it's in.

That might really work!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012UP804?keywords=spray%20foam&qid=1456875994&re f_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

not recommending that ...... non reversible

My half stuffed story
I stuffed my AF120 with spongy foam topped off with two strips of black leatherette to seal the F- holes from the inside
worked great / looked better than plugs or tape IMO
took a couple of hours

However after a while I felt I had over-damped the instrument
So I simply pulled out the stuffing on one side of the guitar

Still works great at suppressing the howl
and has improved the sound of the guitar (to my taste)
(it was too acoustic / lively /bright for me )
its kind of Half acoustic half electric now .... love it

A different sound to a Semi solid centre block guitar , warmer basically

Cheap , works , reversible , looks good

**Cunamara** · 03-03-2016, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Surely you're kidding. Any kind of hollow body will have, from time to time, feedback. Kenny Burrel "stuffed" his guitar at one time. Was he playing the wrong guitar?

But I know you're just joking around with us.

Not very much. While I really like my archtops, they are not suitable for playing at loud volumes amplified. Applying a kludge is, well, applying a kludge. Stuffing the guitar, taping the F holes, even Doug's Plugs are all kludges. Better to use an instrument designed for the situation. Being turned on to Ed Bickert sort of solved that question for me- fantastic tone, no feedback problem.

If it's a loud gig I take my Tele. If it's a quieter gig I most often take my carve top or my GB10, but I can't take my favorite tweed Deluxe with them (too much bass, causes feedback. I can get feedback at a conversational level with the carvetop).

IMHO, YMMV, and other standard disclaimers apply.

**wintermoon** · 03-03-2016, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Not very much. While I really like my archtops, they are not suitable for playing at loud volumes amplified. Applying a kludge is, well, applying a kludge. Stuffing the guitar, taping the F holes, even Doug's Plugs are all kludges. Better to use an instrument designed for the situation. Being turned on to Ed Bickert sort of solved that question for me- fantastic tone, no feedback problem.

If it's a loud gig I take my Tele. If it's a quieter gig I most often take my carve top or my GB10, but I can't take my favorite tweed Deluxe with them (too much bass, causes feedback. I can get feedback at a conversational level with the carvetop).

IMHO, YMMV, and other standard disclaimers apply.

cool Cu, though my mileage does vary on this point. I have no idea what a kludge is, but the tonal diff is minimal at best
@ high volumes w/the plugs
I'm playing in B-3 bands almost exclusively and @ high volume like that I find I can get a great sound w/no feedback w/the plugs, so it's kind of a no brainer for me.
that and I've played full size archtops just about my entire life and there's no reason to start messing w/ Teles, Strats , @ this point. not that you can't get a great sound that way, citing Bickert as you did-
I can get a pretty nice fat sound just using my 60s L-5CES or 70s Aria PE-180 w/the plugs so I'm good to go.

**Woody Sound** · 03-03-2016, 11:20 AM

I have used sofa cushion foam for stuffing with great results. I cut two rectangular blocks a little bigger than the f-holes, and spray them with a little flat-black paint. Then I just force them into the f-holes. Obviously they need to be thick enough to contact the top and back to stay in place.

Edit - fwiw, the modern style s-holes are much easier to get through than the traditional f-holes.

**Cunamara** · 03-04-2016, 02:55 AM

wintermoon, works for you. Good enough for me. But I still won't stuff my Matt Cushman carvetop. I think it's a sin to stuff a beautiful archtop guitar just to prevent feedback and the plugs I've seen are... ugly. Not going there, either.

Re: "kludge." Per Merriam Webster: "The first recorded use of the word kludge is attributed to Jackson W. Granholm, who defined the word in a 1962 issue of the magazine Datamation as: "an ill-assorted collection of poorly-matching parts, forming a distressing whole." He further explained that it was derived from the German word klug, meaning "smart" or "witty." Why Granholm included a "d" in his spelling is not known. What we do know is that speakers of American English have agreed to keep it silent, making the vowel pronunciation of kludge reflect the pronunciation of German klug (KLOOK). We can also tell you that not everyone agrees with Granholm on the "d" matter: the spelling "kluge" is also popularly used."