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As some of you know I’ve been tinkering with an Epiphone ES175 Premium, ‘upgrading' the bridge and other parts as things come up- the bone nut, the wood bridge, the custom guard, the knob set. These upgrades made sense within the context of the guitar having a nitro finish. Recently I noticed the low ‘E’ string tuning head slipping, becoming a little mushy and basically beginning to fail. I can simply replace the one Kluson-type tuner assuming I can buy just one[1] loose Kluson, or buy another entire set of psuedo-Klusions if I can't, say from Guitar Center. Or invest in a heavy duty nickle Grover set. I'm inclined to buy a nice[ ie pricey] set of Grovers, but then I think maybe its overkill and a step too far on a guitar like this. Which would you choose ?
Last edited by electricfactory; 02-24-2016 at 09:08 PM.
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02-24-2016 08:52 PM
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Take a look at the gearing ratios. Some of the newer versions of these classic tuners have 16:1 instead of 12:1.
Some people think the Grovers make the guitar a little head-heavy.
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Never regretted putting Grovers on my 175 Prem. Huge improvement!
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Which ones did you go with exactly ?
Originally Posted by gitrman
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I did the Gotoh version. very happy
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"Step too far on a guitar like this" – meaning what?
I have always thought that a guitar is a total of the parts and materials used. Cheap guitars are cheap because they have cheap parts. If the woods are ok, upgrading everything else will raise the quality of the instruments.
And the tuners are one of the most crucial parts in the guitar. It assures the tuning, it is crucial part of the headstock's weight and resonance system etc.
Only thing I would be cautious is the screw holes. Do You have to make new screw holes for the new tuners? Will the original tuners hide the new holes? That question might affect to the resale value of the guitar – everybody don't want to buy upgraded guitars so it is safest (and most profitable!) to sell guitars in their original condition and the upgrading parts on their own.
There is a Grover model which uses one of the Kluson's screw holes. Try that. And I think Epiphones use metric parts, not imperial Gibson parts.
Good luck!
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sorry...these are the grovers!!-- 35$!
https://www.amplifiedparts.com/products/P-GRV-135N
14:1 gear ratio
most mounting holes will align with these type of tuning pegs..the bigger problem is the post hole size..usa vs metric...these will be metric 10mm..epi fit
cheers
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Gotoh, Sperzel or Schaller.
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Are you having trouble with the current tuners? They're probably fine as is...
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To add a bit of unhelpful perspective, maybe it's a British thing, but in the 60s/70s many/ most players put Grover Rotomatics on their Gibsons and Epis, simply because at the time they were the only available tuner that stayed in tune. No one worried about the holes, or damaging 'vintage value'..staying in tune was the practical goal.
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Grover Rotomatics #102. Had to slightly enlarge the shaft holes, but a 2 dollar round file from Ace hardware did the trick easily, even for a fumble fingers like me. Did the whole (hole?) job in a relaxed 45 minutes.
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It's my understanding that an 18:1 ratio is preferable, my assumption being that tuning ratio is smoother. Does Kluson even make a 18:1 ratio for ES guitars ?
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In my experience (with multiple original Klusons, modern repros, Schallers, Grovers, and Gotohs), sealed die cast tuners are a genuine functional improvement over vintage Klusons, but not over over the modern ones. The old ones have low ratios that make it hard to fine tune, and they have poor parts tolerances that cause rough turning, backlash and slipping. The modern ones have higher ratios, are much better made, and work just as well as die cast tuners (even though they look like they shouldn't). If you are able to get your guitar in tune and keep it that way, Grovers aren't going to do that any better than what you have now. If they're not working, or if you really prefer the way the Grovers look and don't care about the money/effort, go for it. But there's no magic here. A tuner either works or it doesn't. Originally Posted by electricfactory
As some of you know I’ve been tinkering with an Epiphone ES175 Premium, ‘upgrading' the bridge and other parts as things come up- the bone nut, the wood bridge, the custom guard, the knob set. These upgrades made sense within the context of the guitar having a nitro finish. Recently I noticed the low ‘E’ string tuning head slipping, becoming a little mushy and basically beginning to fail. I can simply replace the one Kluson-type tuner assuming I can buy just one[1] loose Kluson, or buy another entire set of psuedo-Klusions if I can't, say from Guitar Center. Or invest in a heavy duty nickle Grover set. I'm inclined to buy a nice[ ie pricey] set of Grovers, but then I think maybe its overkill and a step too far on a guitar like this. Which would you choose ?
John
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Thanks John A, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post. I have one tuner, the low 'E' bass side, that is appears to be failing- backlash, slippage. Not finding success in replacing the single failing tuner, I posed a question regarding the comparitive merits of Kluson repro, Kluson vintage and Grover tuner sets.
If there's a particular set of tuners [under $100] that you like or can recommend by all means post them, better yet post a link as I'm needing to solve it either way. Not looking for'magic, just a good set of replacement tuners.
Originally Posted by John A.
Last edited by electricfactory; 02-25-2016 at 03:49 PM.
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I had the "Gibson Deluxe" branded ones on a 90s Les Paul that worked great. I'm not sure who actually made them, but they look to me to be the same thing as the Kluson "Supreme" model sold by WD Music. Others above have suggested Gotohs. There's also a version of this style of tuner made by Grover. I think any of them would be fine, and all would fit the holes already drilled on you guitar. All are under $100 a set. An alternative might be to go to a guitar shop with a good repair section (i.e., not GC) and see if they have an individual tuner they can sell you from their parts bin. I've had good luck that way scoring individual parts that are otherwise only available in sets. Originally Posted by electricfactory
I don't think diecast/sealed Grovers (or Schallers, or other brands) actually work any better, but they are more robustly constructed, and if you've had an issue with Tuners failing it might be worth trying. IME, the cheaper generic diecast tuners are just as good as Schallers or Grovers, so I would recommend perusing Diecast Guitar Tuners - Huge Collection Diecast Tuners of Guitar at WDMusic, unless you want the look of Grovers (which are found on lots of Gibson models). You'll have to enlarge the holes on your peghead for any of these.
John
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Can someone confirm the exact measures to retrofit the tuners on the Epi Premium?
Is it 10 mm?
I'm also interested in finding tuners other than kluson type but with the same hole placement.
Does that exist?
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Are the Rotomatics GR102 -18 okay?
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I replaced the gibson branded Rotomatics on my 165 with grover kluson style tuners. I didnt have to redrill (but am only using one of the two screw holes along with wth nut to hold the tuner in place.
I appreciated the difference in weight. Maybe psychological but I could hear and feel the difference.
BUT having removed a bit of weight from the headstock also resulted in a dead spot on the C/8th Fret on the high E.
Didnt bother me enough to go back to the Rotomatics which despite being only 15 years old were already getting stiff/sticky.
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The Grovers never bothered Joe Pass on his ES-175D. Head heavy? Maybe, but Joe always held the guitar at a "head high" angle.
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I really don't like the plastiky feel of the tuners on the Epi Premium. They're not bad, but it's the first guitar I have that has plastic on the tuning machine and I don't know why I'm uncomfortable with them
And I like weight on the headstock, I prefer the fact to have the sensation of heftyness up the neck.
And on many the 2 other guitars I have, the change for first quality tuners has definitaly changed the feel. More solid, and maybe it's in my head, better sustain and vibration.
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wondering if you anyone ever found the answer to this? I’m guessing 10mm holes, so that to fit Gotoh Sd90s you need the metric conversion bushings (to put 6.35mm posts into 10mm holes).
If the factory tuners are the same post size (6.35mm) as the sd90s then I guess you can keep the original bushings in and don’t need to buy new ones. Does anyone know? Trying to do this in one go as I love the guitar and lack patience.
Originally Posted by Jx30510
Last edited by Nick-Ald; 10-21-2025 at 06:11 AM.
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