Tone Control Question

[nopedals]

The best tone control I ever had was on a 1957 Gretsch Streamliner. It had useable tones all the way up and down and at every stop in between.

I don't think they used the same wiring on other guitars or even on later streamliners. Years ago I saw a forum post and a schematic on a Gretsch site describing how it was wired differently from a normal tone control, but I have never been able to find that again.

[KirkP]

This may not be quite what you are looking for, but if you want to have a tone control that takes the RC components completely of the circuit when turned to 10, try the Fender "no-load" potentiometer, available at Amazon and elsewhere. That's the pot used in the Fender "Delta Tone" system in my 1997 American Standard Telecaster. There is a noticeable increase in brightness when the indent at 10 is reached. I prefer a slight rolloff so rarely set the tone to 10, but it seems like you are looking for more sizzle that you are able to get at 10 with a standard pot.

[Klausm]

Hmmm it seems like exactly what I am after I'm not sure I'm looking for more sizzle/brightness, but in my head, why should anything be cut off at all? There could be people who would like more brightness, and it gives you more tone options when nothing is cut-off. and if the tone pots are working all the way up and down, you can just roll it back to where you want it. So thanks for that info. Do you know if that "No-load" is the type that works all the way up and down?

[lawson-stone]

I don't think there's a "should" about some cut. I think it's an unavoidable feature of using these variable resistor/potentiometers. It's really old technology, a totally passive control. Even your volume control cuts some frequencies. It's a variable resistor exactly like the tone control, except it's wired with a capacitor to trap out some frequencies. There is another little thing you can add to the circuit, a combination of a fixed-value resistor and a capacitor that stops the volume control from dumping a little high-end. It's called a "treble bleed" circuit (I think) and Stew-Mac has them.

Other types of controls exist, more advanced, and that might be what you are looking for.

[Klausm]

It seems like it is not "unavoidable feature" if you read KirkP's answer. There is a non-load pot

I know about the "Treble-Bleed" I have it on my Stratocaster.

That Strat is actually very special and weird it really haven't taken off, but I think it is because people/musicians can be very conservative
It also seems like, not many people know about it. The Strat I'm talking about is a Fender American DeLuxe Plus Strat.

The special about this guitar is, that it have interchangeable “personality cards” that instantly give you a wealth of versatile pickup and circuitry configurations.



In other words, it comes with 3 different cards, that when you change the card you change the whole wiring in the guitar! Without having to solder anything, quite clever in my mind. My favourite card makes one of the tone controls cut off the treble and the other on cut off the Bass. And it work great.
Another neat feature is that you can change pick-ups without any soldering!
A great Idea that doesn't work because it seem like Fender are not going to make more different cards or pickups for this model because it never really took off.
It is my mind weird because a lot of people with Strats love to mod them to their own liking, and here it can be done in 2 seconds. I think people don't like it because a Strat is a Strat and done come here and mess with that with all your electronics People don't get that it is still analog nothing digital at all.

So of course what I am asking for can be done

[KirkP]

Hmmm it seems like exactly what I am after I'm not sure I'm looking for more sizzle/brightness, but in my head, why should anything be cut off at all? There could be people who would like more brightness, and it gives you more tone options when nothing is cut-off. and if the tone pots are working all the way up and down, you can just roll it back to where you want it. So thanks for that info. Do you know if that "No-load" is the type that works all the way up and down?

The Fender Delta Tone system with single coil pups gradually rolls off the highs over its full travel except perhaps the 1-2 range where it seems to have more of an effect over mid-range resonance of the pickup than high frequencies (which is typical for most passive tone controls on magnetic pickups).

On the bright end, the difference between 9-1/2 and the indent at 10 is only in the very high frequencies, which my senior ears perceive as "sizzle". I never used the feature as I prefer my tone control rolled down at least slightly with single coil pups.

A passive series-RC tone control will always be in the circuit unless there is a switch to remove it, which is effectively what the no-load control does. If you don't like the abrupt switch, you might instead try a much higher resistance pot, but then you might not care for its taper as it's rolled off.

If I were to try to improve my tone control circuit, I think I'd try different values of capacitor before changing out the pot. Capacitors are easier and cheaper to change out and I think will have more influence over tone than the pot value.

[KING "D"]

The best tone is achieved by the least path of resistance between the two holes.All the stuff you put in between them will suck tone. All the #'s don't mean a thing if you can't feel, hear or yes see were tone goes when you go up and down the neck. I can't understand all the things you guy's are talking about, never will. All I know is that what ever I plug into, ends-up depending on the gear, sounding like me. You can spend years chasing tone and never never find it. Go build a guitar that you think sounds like heaven to you and somebody else will think it sounds like S..t. Just plug and play is my motto. (Nothing and I mean nothing sounds better then the tone of a tube amp that's ready to blow-up NOTHING)

[KING "D"]

I was blown-away by this Strat. Can't wait to find a used one at a decent price.

[entresz]

An interesting type of tone control is the Bill Lawrence Q-Filter. You simply replace the capacitor with the Q-Filter. The Q Filter I understand is an inductor. With the tone on '0' the sound is very thin, almost kind of acoustic sounding, and when the tone is on '10' it is the normal unaffected sound of the pickups. I have two Gibson L6-Ss, they both have these wired in. It's a really useful addition, especially on guitars with 'fat' sounding pickups (read: humbuckers).

[jazzbow]

Talkin' Strat tone....(and others).

Anyone heard of 'Tone Shapers'?


Solderless wiring board that pops right into your cavity!

Lots of options. Can mix in H/Bkrs with resistors so output is same as S/Cls.

ToneShaper Products

Cheers matey!

[lawson-stone]

The best tone is achieved by the least path of resistance between the two holes.All the stuff you put in between them will suck tone. All the #'s don't mean a thing if you can't feel, hear or yes see were tone goes when you go up and down the neck. I can't understand all the things you guy's are talking about, never will. All I know is that what ever I plug into, ends-up depending on the gear, sounding like me. You can spend years chasing tone and never never find it. Go build a guitar that you think sounds like heaven to you and somebody else will think it sounds like S..t. Just plug and play is my motto. (Nothing and I mean nothing sounds better then the tone of a tube amp that's ready to blow-up NOTHING)

You might want to think about that fact that for many of us, many who love to play, we also really enjoy experimenting with the gear. We are the guys who install quick-connects on the wiring harnesses of our guitars because we switch out pickups a lot. Why? Not a vain search for a magic bullet so we don't have to play well, but...

... wait for it...

WE ARE HAVING FUN.

Fun. Remember that part?

[Greentone]

My ears tell me that King D is more or less right on vis-a-vis tone shaping. The best sounding amplifiers are the ones with the simplest tone circuits: (1) Fender Champ--no tone control; (2) Fender Deluxe--"tone" control; (3) Ampeg B-12--baxandall bass/treble control (this would include a bunch of baxandall amps, e.g., early Polytone).

Fender and Gibson guitars with just a treble roll off work, just fine.

Now, all this said, one of my favorite guitars of all time is the Bill Lawrence designed Gibson L-6S. Hmm?

However, if folks want to have fun shaping tone, that's their business. It sure sells lotsa pedals and amps with an airplane cockpit's worth of dials.

[Woody Sound]

I have a different, but related problem. When I turn down the tone control, from the top down, it STARTS to mellow out nicely, but then about halfway, instead of getting darker/smokier, it suddenly gets very honky/nasal/mid-ranged sounding. I replaced the cap with a 33, no difference.

[lawson-stone]

My ears tell me that King D is more or less right on vis-a-vis tone shaping. The best sounding amplifiers are the ones with the simplest tone circuits: (1) Fender Champ--no tone control; (2) Fender Deluxe--"tone" control; (3) Ampeg B-12--baxandall bass/treble control (this would include a bunch of baxandall amps, e.g., early Polytone).

Fender and Gibson guitars with just a treble roll off work, just fine.

Now, all this said, one of my favorite guitars of all time is the Bill Lawrence designed Gibson L-6S. Hmm?

However, if folks want to have fun shaping tone, that's their business. It sure sells lotsa pedals and amps with an airplane cockpit's worth of dials.

For me it's really both. I love messing around with my gear to explore things that affect tone. But when I'm asked to play somewhere, some amateur gig, I'm very conservative: Gibson ES something + Polytone, no pedals. Volume on 8, tone on 7, Polytone EQ flat. Boom.

But the other stuff is--as you well know--a lot of fun for me. Plus by knowing a little more about what goes on under the hood, I feel I'm better equipped to use other gear, when I have to, or to solve problems, when they arise.

[Greentone]

Guitar tone control?

[lawson-stone]

Guitar tone control?

I generally find the guitar tone control on about 6-8 does the job for my ear. Takes the edge off the trebles, but still nice and defined.

[KirkP]

I have a different, but related problem. When I turn down the tone control, from the top down, it STARTS to mellow out nicely, but then about halfway, instead of getting darker/smokier, it suddenly gets very honky/nasal/mid-ranged sounding. I replaced the cap with a 33, no difference.

This is probably caused by the R-C circuit interacting with the impedance of the pickup, causing a bump in the low-mid-frequency response at low resistance settings. The nature of that bump depends on R-C values and pickup design. It's always a factor for passive pickup/tone controls.

[Woody Sound]

If it helps, it's the KA 12-pole hand-wound set-in. I had the floating version on a carved guitar and it sounded GLORIOUS. (I think you too have one on your HJS?) So when I bought a lam guitar with set-in pickup I thought I'd put one in. Sounds horrible when you back off the tone control.

[Boston Joe]

I'm pretty sure that a lot of pots (especially the cheaper ones) use a "fake" audio taper. That is, two linear tapers with a "knee" somewhere in the middle.

[KirkP]

I don't have an HJS, so you may have me confused with someone else.

Not sure how to remove your "honk" issue, but since you are already trying capacitor changes my instinct would be to try lower capacitor values, not higher. I suspect that the higher the capacitance value, the more likely it is that it will interact with the pickup's impedance rather than simply rolling off high frequencies.

[medblues]

pkirk has a HJS :-)

[Max405]

Yeah with a Rose on the pickguard.
Oh my god, be still my heart..
JD