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This thread isn't about the technical or general differences between PAF-type and P90 pickups, much has been written about that and there are lots of internet sources to reference for those who aren't familiar with each pickup type.
I'm wondering what the apparent tonal differences are between these two pickups in the ES 175-type guitar specifically, and within the setting of jazz [ not blues, not rock etc].
The ES 175 has it's own distinctive voice, whether you prefer that voice or not is a different question. My question- does the ES 175 sound change significantly by swapping out those a PAF-type for a P90 within the context of jazz, all else staying the same ? By most accounts P90's are generally 'darker' sounding in an archtop, but would you know that by listening to a recording ?
Was trying to locate side-by-side ES 175 PAF/ P90 comparisons but couldn't locate any.
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02-08-2016 02:58 PM
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oh, yes...that would be something that would probably work out for you pretty well. Listen, I have a 1954 Gibson 175. 3 years ago, the winding in my neck pickup opened up and the pickup died and I had to replace it.
I used a Seymore Duncan vintage 90, which is a P90 with the form and fit of the original soap bar pickups of the 175s and with the same single coil bite of the original Gibson pickups. I can tell you that the Seymore Duncan Vintage 90 in the neck is balanced pretty well with the original bridge pickup
I honestly don't believe there is much difference in tone at all from the original, which means to me that if you put those pickups in your axe, you will be happy with what you get AND the sound will be authentic jazz
so that might not be the best side by side test you could get...but I play a new Seymore Duncan Vintage 90 in the neck and old original in the bridge position of the same axe. The new pickup sounds like the old neck pickup did and they balance pretty well
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Yes, they are different, but both work very well. Some players find a P90 to give a fatter top string sound than a PAF. To my ears, the P90 sound is a little denser, with more weight, on the top strings, but doesn't have the typical PAF 'airiness' which is part of the PAF charm ( and is caused by harmonic cancellation between the two coils in a HB pickup). Obviously the P90 will have a clearer sound on the bottom strings, being single coil.
Which is 'better'? impossible to say, they are both very attractive sounds and both sounds have become iconic through recordings we all love. In this case, it really is a question of personal preference. The P90 hums of course, but that isn't an issue for most jazz players.
Worth noting that HB-sized P90s don't sound the same as real P90s, in case you are tempted.
Side-by-side comparisons are v difficult to find, but you could try early vs late Jim Hall as a general guide.
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If you ask me it is about what I'll call 'responsiveness.' Which I'll say is how the guitar and strings respond to the pluck. It only makes sense in the context of how you are plucking the string, so without actually playing the instrument yourself, any comparison is of little value. Because one can make the two pickups sound similar to a listener.
For example, trying to find out about these two pickups by listening to others play them is like watching the owner of a dog or cat petting the animal and trying to understand how that feels to the owner.Last edited by icr; 02-08-2016 at 06:07 PM.
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Maybe this can help:
Here's my 1948 ES-125 (essentially an ES-175 without cutaway) with a Gibson stamped pat.no. humbucker:
Here's the same guitar after I swapped the bucker for a Lollar P90:
One detail: the tone cap with the bucker was a whooping 0.1 uF instead of the usual 0.022 uF.Last edited by Little Jay; 02-08-2016 at 07:14 PM.
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Are you playing through the same amp in both clips ?
Originally Posted by Little Jay
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Lucky for you there are many recordings doing exactly this. Listen to Jim Hall from the 50s/early 60s with his ES-175 with P90 (Sonny Rollins, Art Farmer). Then listen to Jim Hall Live (D'Aquisto on the cover but he played the ES-175). Originally Posted by electricfactory
Sounds more like the guitarist and less like the pickups...
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Yes, both played thru my Twin Reverb (clone)! Originally Posted by electricfactory
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Indeed! Same goes for Herb Ellis, he changed the P90 in his 175 to a bucker as well! Originally Posted by Cunamara
Last edited by Little Jay; 02-09-2016 at 02:05 AM.
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Little Jay, your "beat-up" ES-125 is sounding mighty fine. Love it, man.
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That is a hard one, love the sound of both but in spite of being a big P90 fan I think the Paf has the edge. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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Oh no! Don't make me doubt my decision to put back a P90!! Originally Posted by Para
(technically it's not a paf - pattent applied for - but a pattented :-). It's a very sweet sounding pickup indeed!)
This was recorded with a Lollar P90 in it, meanwhile there's an original 1947 P90 in it (I bought that from Sam Sherry), sounds again a little different. I'll see if I can make a recording of that too one of these days.Last edited by Little Jay; 02-09-2016 at 08:54 AM.
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Here is a side by side comparison. Herb Ellis is on the left with his 1953 ES-175 (P90). Joe Pass is playing his 1963/4 ES-175D (humbuckers) on the neck pickup. Now, Ellis is using a pick, which brightens things up somewhat. Pass is using his fingers, which darkens things up a little. They are both recording using small Polytone amps (I think). That's pretty even for a comparison.
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Amazing how each one's tone is so perfectly matched to the way they play.
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Interestingly, the album cover doesn't depict Joe playing an ES175, but likely a D'Aquisto (?). Something with a round cutaway and more ornate headstock. If I recall, though, the liner notes state they both use ES175s. Originally Posted by Greentone
Oh well...
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I think a P90 will have more string separation and can be more biting on the top end.
All PAFs are not equal by any means though. A 7.4k PAF will be brighter and chirpier than an 8.1k PAF (though the magnet will also play a part in addition to resistance).
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Little Jay, you are sounding good! Also, I like your fiddles.
If I played out a humbucker would be required, I understand that but
perhaps I need my hearing tested (not really joking) because 'buckers
kind of say "missing information" to me.
This is not a criticism of all the immortal music made with humbuckers.
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Good question and great answers. I have been a big P90 fan for a decade in my rocking LP and so I have thought that it would be the way to go with my ES-175 too.
But now I have had a Lollar 50's Wind P90 in my ES175 for some weeks and I don't know. The difference is not so big I thought. Maybe P90 does not compress as much?
There was a clip here lately which analysed some differences of the playing styles that fit better for each pickup. You know, another was better suited for more pizzicato style, another for more legato work. Of course I don't remember what the clip was. Sorry!
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Point of clarification. When you say "compress", are you talking dynamic compression (i.e. volume) or tonal compression (suppression of highs)?!
I think humbuckers do both of these, compared to a decent P90. I have a Vintage Vibe humbucker sized P90 in the neck in a 175 lawsuit guitar (Aria Pro II, EA-650 model, 1980-ish model). It has way more "sparkle" than a humbucker and more dynamic responsiveness, and it is also very quiet. I like it a lot. I have played some p90's on vintage Gibson which I thought were awful---noisy, harsh and mid-range, bark-y.
When I had Pete Biltoft make it for me, I told him I wanted a low-wind, kind of sweet sound. I'm very happy with it.
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Some humbuckers are rounder in the higher end of the tonal spectrum, but I meant simply the response to the picking. The humbucker's response to picking has that certain compression or softness. P90's response is 'harder'. This is mostly a matter of a feel, not necessarily the sound. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
I found the clip where the maker – a luthier? – analyses what playing styles fit with p90s and humbuckers. Here it is in about 3:43. Never heard before.
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Those comparison videos are made by forum-member EriktK.
His youtube-channel is worth checking out.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9u...jAFXrV2RSozcVw
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In a response in one of the youtube videos someone commented that a P90 requires a better playing technique because they are less forgiving than humbuckers. I do recognize that.
Because I can't resist here's a more recent vid of my ES with the 1947 P90 installed. I'm playing through my modified Fender Blues Deluxe.
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I think that is a GREAT sounding P90...sweet, and articulate.
Not to open another can of worms, but there is something about a non-cutaway instrument...depth of bass response, I guess. One of these days--- if I find the right ES150....
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Wow, bloody nice sound! And playing too, of course! Originally Posted by Little Jay
How have You modded Your Blues Deluxe? I had one years ago and IT did not sound like that!
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Thanks! Originally Posted by Herbie
The Blues Deluxe (and Hot Rod series) is a nice amp, but with some difficulties (too much bass, shrill on high volumes). I changed the values of the caps and resistors of the tonestack, phase inverter and negative feedback to blackface specs with a couple of bucks worth of parts and that made the amp one of my best! I can give you more details if interested, but then we would hijack this thread....
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