P90's

**Paully** · 02-05-2016, 09:07 PM

I've got a '99 Epiphone Joe Pass. I'm not happy with the tones of the original p'ups. How would P90's work? I read somewhere that Wes M. used them. Any advice or opinions, or conclusions would be greatly appreciated.

**kenbennett** · 02-05-2016, 09:22 PM

P90 is a great pickup. One of my favorite swap outs for a humbucker is the GFS Dream 90. Don't be put off by the low price. They kill.

**Cunamara** · 02-05-2016, 09:27 PM

Contact Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe Guitars. He's got a slough of options that will drop right into your pickup slot: P90, Charlie Christian, humbucker, etc., etc. Pete can help direct you towards a choice to get you to the tone you want.

**pubylakeg** · 02-05-2016, 10:15 PM

Yup, Tal Farlow, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall, Grant Green, all got great Jazz tones from P90s.

Everything pre 1957= single coil.

**neatomic** · 02-05-2016, 10:27 PM

complicated!!..but a humbucker sized p 90 will never fully capture a true p-90 tone...the physics is off..and to retrofit true p-90's is a big $$ job..

there are however many good upgrades for the epi humbucker pups you presently have on there...a single coil p90 type will add noise (hum)...but many nice classic jazz toned humbucker replacements out there

see recent seth lover vs classic 57 thread

luck

cheers

**Marty Grass** · 02-05-2016, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

a humbucker sized p 90 will never fully capture a true p-90 tone...the physics is off..and to retrofit true p-90's is a big $$ job..

I hear and read this all of the time. And there is truth there, but there is more to say.

The so called P-90 tone is not a single tone at all. It's really a family of pickups with a pretty good sized spectrum. There was even variance in sound in P-90s from week to week in the 1950s at Gibson.

I have a few types of traditional P-90s. They sound similar. My Fralin P-92s sound like fat single coils and there's no hum. I've used them as humbucker replacements and love them.

I think neatomic has a point. I also believe that there are so many other factors that affect clarity in the amplified sound that are easier and cheaper rabbit holes to go down first. Phat Cats, P-92s and other single coil-type HB fitting pups made sense to try first.

Here are shameless pix of my single coils. They all sound different- and very good.

**neatomic** · 02-06-2016, 12:28 AM

as i prefaced...complicated..but original p-90s were 10,000 winds of #42 wire..wrapped around a large but shallow bobbin...screw polepieces and magnets below bobbin..a very definite template...

any deviation from those specifics..while it may sound good/better etc..is still not true to the original design..and will affect tone!

the fact that the vintage pickups may sound different today, has no real bearing on the original design..as time and the elements have taken their effect

so when i hear- well i have 2 p-90's and they are different sounding..well..time and circumstance have taken their toll .. more than original intent/design

lastly, i think many like the wide coil single idea/tone..but in actuality don't care for the noise and hum inherent in the design..hence humbuckers

i think op has other humbucking options that may be more to his liking..that's all

cheers

ps-also the g&l z coil and fender wide range split coil pickups pictured above are wound to humbuck..have seperate coils ala the fender precision bass

**Marty Grass** · 02-06-2016, 10:52 AM

The Z coils are wound for hum cancelation and succeed. But they have a distinct single coil tone, as does the P-92. Same concept. Here's a good demonstration.

Here's an erudite overview of P-90's. Enjoy.

There currently is an exhibit in the Kalamazoo Valley Museum on the history of Gibson, especially of the WWII era.

Kalamazoo Gals - Kalamazoo Valley Museum

I have not specifically asked about the variances in P-90s in the 1950s and 1960s. Most everyone has focused on PAF stories. But I suspect that there was substantial variance just like with the PAFs. I can find out though. Retired Gibson workers abound in Kalamazoo.

I do find this stuff interesting.

**Greentone** · 02-06-2016, 11:51 AM

Don't forget Herb Ellis. For most of his career his ES-175 had a P90 in it. Only after he sent it back to Gibson in the mid-80s did it get a Humbucker.

The P90 first appeared on the ES300, ES150, and ES125 in the 1940s. I used to play a ES300. It sounded outstanding with the early P90. I owned an early-60s ES125T for a long time. It, too, sounded great with the P90. _Every_ P90-equipped ES175 I have played has sounded excellent. Honestly, I prefer them to the Humbucker-equipped models. Part of this could be vintage, though--the old guitars just sound and play great.

I suspect that if you dropped a P90 into your Epiphone Joe Pass you would be pleased with the tone. You might not be so happy with the noise floor when you take your hands off of the strings, though. (I always keep one hand on the guitar on single-coil instruments. It lowers the noise level.)

Now, having said all of this about the P90, I should point out that my favorite sounding single-coil pickup for jazz is the DeArmond. The Rhythm Chief is simply a magical pickup for archtops, although it isn't a set-in pickup. For set in needs the P90 is a great pickup. P90's-herb-ellis-jpg

**2bornot2bop** · 02-06-2016, 06:02 PM

So, is it possible to buy a Fralin P-92 single pickup for neck position only? I'm only finding sells for sets. I only need a neck pickup. Thanks!

**neatomic** · 02-06-2016, 06:28 PM

review of various humbucker sized p-90 type pickups & some very good info

Humbucker-Sized P-90 Review Roundup | Premier Guitar

inc the caveat i mentioned above

"P-90 or Not?
Please note the words “P-90-style.” None of the pickups covered here are true P-90s. As experts like Seymour Duncan, Lindy Fralin, and Jason Lollar hasten to point out, even if you use the same materials and manufacturing methods that Gibson employed in the 1950s, simply changing the format from the original P-90’s wide, low coil to the humbucker’s relatively tall, narrow one inevitably alters the tone. The most common compromise is to use thinner pickup wire (say, 43 gauge instead of 42) to permit the traditional number of winds on a humbucker-sized bobbin. But even then, the result won’t sound exactly like the original..."

cheers

**Marty Grass** · 02-06-2016, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

So, is it possible to buy a Fralin P-92 single pickup for neck position only? I'm only finding sells for sets. I only need a neck pickup. Thanks!

Yes, you can buy a single one from Fralin. Sometimes used singles are around also.

**GNAPPI** · 02-06-2016, 08:20 PM

I have a few guitars with P90's, P94's, surf 90 pickups from GHS, and P100's and the only one I really doesn't fit the bill of a P90 vibe is the P100, no surprise there.

**Herbie** · 02-07-2016, 02:41 PM

I have tested many hb sized single coils (often sold as p90's) in my ES175 and the best sounding single coil is a Lollar 50's Wind P90. P90 sized P90. None of the small ones are even close to that balance of lows, mids and highs, biting and warmth.

I had to make a 3-4 mm thick wooden base for the pu with 2 screw holes for the hb cover holes. And to saw ca 5 x 5 mm pieces off the metal base plate of the pickup. Soft metal, easy to saw. (Maybe the effect to the resale value is not as easy...) A bit diy heroism but the git has no extra screw holes.

**Cunamara** · 02-07-2016, 03:17 PM

Hmmm, when speaking of P90s I always think of Jim Hall's tone with his ES-175 with the P90, before he replaced it with a humbucker. Warm and fat but still with enough highs to not just disappear on stage. As neatomic pointed out he P90 was a wide aperture single coil, "reading" as much of the string as an entire humbucker; the only way to reproduce that sound is with the same geometry, wire and magnets.

"Tone" is relative to situation. When I am sitting playing by myself, I use a different tone than I do on stage with my quintet. With horns, bass and drums I need a much brighter tone. A lot of the nuance we find through tweaking EQ, pickups, strings, etc., is completely inaudible once all those other instruments kick in. My warm, mellow living room tone turns into barely audible mud on stage.

While the humbucker sized P90 is going to sound different from a real P90 at home, the differences on stage are going to be a lot less noticeable.

**davidBb** · 02-26-2016, 05:26 AM

I've had a few Epis and I ALWAYS find the stock pickups lacking clarity and note separation - muddy - when compared to pretty much anything higher end.

If that's the issue I'd personally try some Gibson '57s, Bare Knuckle Stormy Mondays, SD Seth lovers - these are all models that have made a big difference on Epis and similar.

That said, I did try P94s on a whim many moons ago and they were decent. I'm just a bit wedded to humbuckers.

**fabiansey** · 02-26-2016, 07:07 AM

The Fralin P92 is my favourite Pickup. I use it in my Benedetto Bravo- very clear but warm sound, much clearer than any humbucker I have ever used.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-26-2016, 07:11 AM

I tried P90s several times and always end up with PAFs. Some PAFs have excellent clarity like the Di Marzio 36th (cheap too).

**mad dog** · 02-26-2016, 08:50 AM

I go back and forth between humbuckers, minihums and P-90s. Love them all, but something special about P90s. Tried many of the HB sized P-90 types. Some good sounds there, but not the same as actual, full size P-90s.

There are strong similarities between a good, lower output humbucker (PAF type) and a good P90. Can sound somewhat the same, but the low end especially feels different to me. Something else, at least in hollowbodies, is how the middle p/u position sound works. Not always relevant to jazz playing, but it is there. Something intense and so pleasing about the twang with both P-90s on in a hollowbody.
MD

**Encinitastubes** · 02-26-2016, 05:03 PM

I agree with Mad. The twang is the difference, although it can be dialed out in a P90.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-26-2016, 07:10 PM

To me it's not just eq, if it was I would prefer P90s actually, tighter more clear bass and extended treble. The "attack" changes a lot and P90s are too sharp on that department for my taste.

**neatomic** · 02-26-2016, 07:27 PM

but remember op--- needs pups for an epi joe pass humbucker routed guitar...installing "real" p90's requires some woodwork..and humbucker sized "p90's" are not quite dogears...what to do?

cheers

**mad dog** · 02-27-2016, 10:22 PM

Another P-90 heard from ...

Just got the hollowbody I've been chasing after for years ... a Heritage H525. Comes stock with Lollar P-90s. This is a guitar I've never even seen in person, much less tried. So all I had was the strongest feeling that it would be the sound I want. Luckily, that feeling was dead on.

I've had Lollar P-90s before (and liked them alot), but with this Heritage, I feel like I'm hearing a perfect match of pickups and guitar. Getting the sense that there is no one best P90 or anything else. But that there can be the absolutely perfect pickup for a particular guitar. Many thanks to heritage for knowing what that pickup would be for the H525, and to Jason Lollar for providing it.
MD