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Ugh... the eternal struggle of a guitarist.
For almost a year now, I've had my beloved Gibson ES-139. I'm sure most of you know about my love for it because I won't ever shut up about it
so there's no need to go through all THAT again..!
...oh okay, just a little. We'll get to it later on in the post.
Last year (heck it might be 2 years ago) I bought a couple of pedals to sort me out. I got a Joyo "Vintage Overdrive" and a Blackstar HT Modulation pedal. From late 2014, this was how my entire guitar rig looked, sans guitar:
(Side note money saving tip: That there is a $6 kitchen cutting board with $1 worth of velcro.)
I've used it on many studio gigs, a few rock/funk/pop gigs, and my own graduation exam in june last year. I felt like I had my own, distinctive sound and I loved it. Then, sometime during summer, I started using the built-in effects on my vintage Roland Cube 30, and later my SY-300. I stowed away the pedals under my bed, where they've sat untouched until today.
Bonus: the sound of the Cube 30's chorus and distortion. It's an exerpt from a much longer recording.
I plugged into my trusty Peavey Stereo Chorus 212 and was... disappointed. Somehow it all felt very muted, boring, digital, soulless, metallic, tinny and so on... I tried it in a Fender blues jr without any change in my favor. The only conclusion to draw was that the pedals weren't right for me anymore, because the 212 always offered a great sound of its own. I tried with a stratocaster too. Nope. (After playing the strat for a while and getting the ES-139 back in my hands - just like putting on your favorite summer jacket or driving your own car after having borrowed one for a week. )
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the pure, clean tone through the 212. No complaints there. However, the distortion & chorus I want is a different subject. I want to have a clear, crisp sound with a very... smooth chorus? It's hard to explain.
Something along the lines of Robben Ford BEFORE he got the Dumble, which was 1983.
The guitar first appears at 0:45
I realize that, knowing Robben, this is possibly a strat (or an esprit?). I have seen clips of him live in '79 and '81 with what would become Yellowjackets where he used an ES-335. The well-informed/lived forum members have told me that he would also appear with a Yamaha "ES-335" and a Yamaha G112.
I also adore Larry Carlton's tone with Steely Dan.
I know most of us here on the forum probably enjoy a clean-ish tone most of the time, but bending and making the guitar "scream" is a type of release too IMO. Sometimes it's just what you need.
So, I'm coming to the forum for help(as always). Is it impossible to get a crystal clear distorted/chorus sound on a semi-hollowbody Gibson with humbuckers and flatwounds?
I'd love to hear any ideas! I'll look into them all!
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02-04-2016 04:45 PM
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" Is it impossible to get a crystal clear distorted/chorus sound on a semi-hollowbody Gibson with humbuckers and flatwounds? "
To be completely totally honest, the thought never occurred to me.
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Well, in this recording I used the same Joyo pedal on a Fender Blues Deluxe amp, playing my Gibson ES-333 with classic 57s. The guitar is strung with .013 flatwounds (Thomastiks). It's a pop demo for a singer, no jazz or even fusion but just for the idea. An overdriven guitar solo starts at 2.06 or so. Just to see if we can establish the type of sound a humbucker guitar with flatwounds thru the Joyo makes. I do roll off the tone for overdriven sounds, btw.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c48ilgjpnr...Final.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c48ilgjpnr...Final.wav?dl=0
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I recently got an mxr analog chorus pedal and I really love it. It's not cheezy 80s chorus and can be tweaked for all kinds of different subtle chorus sounds. I highly recommend it. For distortion, I use an old Boss super overdrive. Great sound with just enough grit.
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Wow, that sounds damn cool Little Jay!!! Maybe it IS the amp?
(and also your technique)
@ Alain
Thanks for the tip! I've got some stuff on order which I have to pick up at the local music store, I'll see if they have it!
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I've watched so many people drive themselves absolutely crazy trying to cop various era of Robben Ford's tone and I'm not sure that I've ever seen any of them happy with their results (even when I thought they sounded great). So you seem to be joining a long line of players on a similar quest, almost all of whom strike me as being perpetually unhappy with their tone. My suggestion would be to alter your course, explore the tones that are available to you and readily achievable and settle on the ones that make you happy without having to fulfill a predetermined objective.
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 02-04-2016 at 06:03 PM.
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Yeah, well the amp is something special actually, it's no longer a real Blues Deluxe since I changed the speaker (Jensen Neo 12-100) and changed the circuit so it's much closer to an AB763 Twin (but half the power amp) schematic.
I have an MXR chorus as well (micro chorus I believe, the yellow one with just one knob) and that's the best one I found after trying Ibanez, Boss CH-1 and Electro Harmonix Small Clone (also very nice): a very thick, organic and lush chorus that does everything with just one knob, but not that typical 80ies Robben Ford or Yellow Jackets chorus sound (that I don't care that much for, btw).
Yeah, making your sound is a long and winding road, sometimes frustrating. All you can do is try different stuff and see what works for you.
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"cyrstal clear distorted/chorus sound" strikes me as a contradiction in terms. You can't be all of these things simultaneously. However, you can use a semi with humbuckers and flats for both clean tones and distorted tones (via a pedal or channel switching), including with chorus. I prefer rounds (as, SFAIK, do Ford and Carlton), but de gustibus, yada yada.
Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
Ugh... the eternal struggle of a guitarist.
[snip]
Something along the lines of Robben Ford BEFORE he got the Dumble, which was 1983.
The guitar first appears at 0:45
I realize that, knowing Robben, this is possibly a strat (or an esprit?). I have seen clips of him live in '79 and '81 with what would become Yellowjackets where he used an ES-335. The well-informed/lived forum members have told me that he would also appear with a Yamaha "ES-335" and a Yamaha G112.
I also adore Larry Carlton's tone with Steely Dan.
I know most of us here on the forum probably enjoy a clean-ish tone most of the time, but bending and making the guitar "scream" is a type of release too IMO. Sometimes it's just what you need.
So, I'm coming to the forum for help(as always). Is it impossible to get a crystal clear distorted/chorus sound on a semi-hollowbody Gibson with humbuckers and flatwounds?
I'd love to hear any ideas! I'll look into them all!
I'm 99% sure Robben Ford played a 335 on those Yellowjackets tune. The modulation effect on Priscilla sounds more like a flanger than a chorus to me, but there's some overlap between the two; anyway, maybe try a flanger? I used to use a Boss chorus pedal quite a bit, but I've grown to dislike modulation effects and almost never use 'em anymore. That said, IME, the cleanest, least nasally, subtlest chorus I've ever tried is a TC. Maybe try that?
On Imperial Strut, I'm not sure I hear modulation at all. I do hear delay though. RF has pretty much always used some slapback, and sometimes mixed other delay lengths and repeat-rates; I would suggest trying a little slapback, playing around with the length and blend. Some of the Yellowjackets, and earlier stuff is actually a Super 400. Talk to Your Daughter is mostly the Fender Esprit (or maybe it was the Robben Ford model by then?). I've seen him live with the Fender RF, a 335, a LP, and a Tele through Dumbles and Marshalls. I also saw him give a clinic playing through a red-knob "evil twin" with an OD pedal. It's not the rig. It's him, and the way he pulls the sound he wants out of the rig.
Larry Carlton with Steely Dan -- depends on which tunes you're talking about, but nearly all of it is just a 335 into an amp, mostly small Fenders (tweed Deluxes and Princetons). From what I understand, he didn't start using Dumbles until he got going as a solo act. I've seen him many times, mostly with a Dumble, but also with tweed Fenders; a bunch of different guitars. It's not the rig. It's him, and the way he pulls the sound he wants out of the rig.
If you want to sound like either of these guys, for the most part I'd recommend ditching the chorus (except for some occasional variety of texture), use round wounds (10's), and focus on finding an overdrive pedal that gets you closer than what you have. Personally, I don't think it has to be a d-style pedal (I have a Fulltone OCD and a T-Rex Crunchy Frog), but others would disagree. To really nail those tones, though, you also have to crank the amp pretty loud. Playing dynamically, and using the volume controls on the guitar (or a volume pedal) to get sounds ranging from fairly clean/quiet to full on feedback is a big part of both of their approaches to tone. You can't get all the way there with a SS amp on 3 and a pedal.
John
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Lots of fantastic advice, thank you guys
Let me clarify that it doesn't have to be "sounding like them", but those are tones that I love. I might be able to live without the chorus but it goes so well with the music I write/play
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Agree with the player-tone connection after going through the tonechaser process myself, but...it's fun to chase tone as long as it doesn't keep you from enjoying the music. I love the excitement of trying new stuff...and the comfortable feeling of playing something that feels like part of you. My RF tone chase was fun and I ended up with a Ceriatone OTS and and HOF delay...really simple and really tasty. I play a bunch of Fenders too and I found that with a Sonic Fusion OD or Barber Small Fry...I still sound like me (trying to sound like him).
Some of us just grab anything and play and never think about "gear," and others go all Eric Johnson on it. There's no right way to do this...just whatever makes you wanna play more. I do dig hearing all of the different approaches to playing...I think that's what keep music from being boring. Heck, even the dreck that passes for pop/rock today makes me appreciate the other stuff even more...that's cool too. Thanks sucky music!
*I think RF said that the first YJ album was 335 with a Strat doing some of the rhythm stuff.
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if i was chasing that tone i would buy a 335 (or a copy but get the 57 classic pickups in it), a princeton or a deluxe reverb, an xotic bb (or rc depending how much o/d you want which sounds like a lot so go the bb) and a tc chorus. guaranteed you would have that 70's lc rf sound.
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Good post. The problem I guess would be that I can't really enjoy playing with my current setup as I feel that I don't get to express what I want to express Originally Posted by jbear
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That...is actually a practical reason to change something! I hope you find it. I've found stuff I didn't even know I was looking for when looking for other things.
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There was a Mesa/Boogie Studio 22(1986?) in the basement. Felt good to play on a tube amplifier. I think I'd prefer a built-in dirty channel though. OR perhaps one of those V Twin pedals?
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Actually the old Mesa Boogie isn't really any better than a contemporary mid-range amp. I was certainly impressed with the Genz Benz.
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I just keep listening to this over and over again. That solo is just like when LC was in his prime. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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These tunes are both through a Boogie .22 Caliber Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
https://soundcloud.com/john-albin/sonnymoon-for-two
Neither is pristinely clean (or chorused, so use your imagination on that front ), but I think this demonstrates a semi with humbucker's ability to go from clean to Carltonesque OD. I don't think of the OD here as very Ford-like, but with a Fender style tone stack, and a delay, I can get pretty close.
John
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Rounds or flats?
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Now you make me blush..... :-$ Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
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Me? Rounds. Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
John
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Robben's tone on The Inside Story and with the Yellowjackets sounds like there's a heavy time-based effect, not a chorus but more like a flanger set as a doubler with slow modulation (short delay & very low rate and IIRC little or no feedback), a chorus can get in this territory if you set the rate low and depth high but I think a flanger gets closer (more clarity as a doubler).
Ford also used a Yamaha G100-II around this time and people were using that amp's parametric EQ to radically boost or scoop a fairly narrow band.
Whatever it is, it seems to have lessened dramatically when the Dumble arrived.
Or maybe he just has a really unusual pick technique?Last edited by MaxTwang; 02-08-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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Thanks for the answers here and in other threads. My father swapped the tubes in an old Peavey Classic 30 with send/return. I got a fender delay (50% off) and the drive channel on the Classic is freakin' ace! Unfortunately something's wrong with it again, it started humming and stopped making sound when I was pumping the clean channel.
For now, I'll have to do without the chorus. That said, maybe I can utilize the send/return and use my SY-300's chorus and delay effects, which are great
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Swapped all the EL84's. Worked for 2 minutes before losing sound and just humming again. Any ideas?
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Yeah, it's broken, and it's not bad tubes. Get it fixed. :-) Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
John
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How much $$ do you want to spend? Listen a little bit to Johnny A. He gets fantastic sounds out of a TC Electronic G System. You need a separate overdrive pedal, though. I bought the TC Electronic Nova System which has analog drove and distortion and many of the same effects as the G System. I didn't like the drive tones, though and use a standard Boss Blues Driver. The rest of the effects are as pristine as you can find and the unit doesn't color your clean tone a bit. Just MHO
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