Epiphone "pre Elitest" protoype?

**2bornot2bop** · 01-13-2016, 09:02 PM

Anyone ever seen one of these "prototype" Epi's?

Greentone?

Poorly photographed, but other than the bridge adjustment at its lowest point this guitar may have possibilities at a fraction of the cost, today, for an Aria PE180

https://reverb.com/item/1535242-epip...tist-1980s-vsb

**2bornot2bop** · 01-13-2016, 09:19 PM

Okay, I found a former ebay listing that appears the current seller may have plagiarized...still decent looking jazz box...nearly 3.5" in depth

I didn't think Matsumoku was still building in the "late" 80's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980s-Epipho...p2047675.l2557

**pubylakeg** · 01-13-2016, 10:05 PM

I recognized the chair, it was in this sellers inventory some time ago.

Joe's Vintage Guitars.Com

Personally, I'm smelling poisson, because Gibson/Epiphone have been so consistent with certain design features, regardless of which factory has been building their import guitars, but I suppose with prototypes there's always room for exceptions.

**pubylakeg** · 01-13-2016, 10:09 PM

[QUOTE=2bornot2bop;605590

I didn't think Matsumoku was still building in the "late" 80's

[/QUOTE]

Terada built some (with minor differences to the Matsumoku) in the late 80's called the Emperor-J model.

**2bornot2bop** · 01-14-2016, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

I recognized the chair, it was in this sellers inventory some time ago.

Joe's Vintage Guitars.Com

Personally, I'm smelling poisson, because Gibson/Epiphone have been so consistent with certain design features, regardless of which factory has been building their import guitars, but I suppose with prototypes there's always room for exceptions.

Frankly I'm shocked Joe's Vintage guitars listed the above guitar on eBay for as low as $1200. There's a story there somewhere, because he always asks top market value and above

**BigMikeinNJ** · 01-14-2016, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Frankly I'm shocked Joe's Vintage guitars listed the above guitar on eBay for as low as $1200. There's a story there somewhere, because he always asks top market value and above

Absolutely.

**Greentone** · 01-14-2016, 11:56 AM

The guitar _could_ be a Matsumoku--the factory fire didn't occur until 1988. However, there are aspects of the guitar that don't look like 80s Matsumoku work, to me. The fingerboard is not right. The point at the end of the fingerboard is crude in comparison to Gibson, or in comparison to other examples of Matsumoku guitars. The inlays don't look quite refined enough--they remind me of late-Teisco/early-Matsumoku work (early-70s). The tailpiece doesn't look like the "L5" style tailpiece used on other Matsumoku-type instruments (Aria Pro II Herb Ellis/Bill Conti, etc.). Overall, the instrument looks closer to a transition between the late-60s/early-70s to the mid-70s, than it does an 80s example--_if_ it is a Matsumoku guitar. The bridge is right, but JV sells those bridges through his site.

I suspect that JV's pricing reflects his suspicions--priced very low.

**Archie** · 01-14-2016, 01:56 PM

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Mat wasn't making guitar from the mid 80s. Its not a pre Elite, its some low rent generic Japanese made archtop on the cheaper end of the scale. Think Hondo (which is the headstock shape btw) ;-)

**Greentone** · 01-14-2016, 03:17 PM

I think AH nailed it. The tailpiece, point of the fretboard, fretboard inlays, etc., all look like the Hondo Fatboy...onto which a Matsumoku bridge has been placed.

**2bornot2bop** · 01-14-2016, 04:19 PM

Thanks guys! We shouldn't expect somethin' for nuthin' should we. So even JVG misidentified this when he had it?

**2bornot2bop** · 01-14-2016, 07:00 PM

And another question - How does a "made in Japan Epiphone" end up with an Epiphone Kalamazoo, MI sticker in its f-hole?

I thought Gibson didn't sub out work to Japan until the 80's? The seller suggest this guitar is from the 70's...Perhaps the sellers dating is inaccurate?

Used Epiphone Emperor Vintage 1970s Made in Japan w Non Original Hardshell Case | eBay

**pubylakeg** · 01-14-2016, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

And another question - How does a "made in Japan Epiphone" end up with an Epiphone Kalamazoo, MI sticker in its f-hole?

I thought Gibson didn't sub out work to Japan until the 80's? The seller suggest this guitar is from the 70's...Perhaps the sellers dating is inaccurate?

Used Epiphone Emperor Vintage 1970s Made in Japan w Non Original Hardshell Case | eBay

Could be a Matsumoku built Emperor S, poss changed pickguard or logo removed and p/up selector tip.

Co-incidentally, the Matsumoku Emperor F's very often have the serial number field on the label left blank as well (as per the Kalamazoo type label in the ad listing)

**Greentone** · 01-14-2016, 11:52 PM

This Epiphone _is_ a Matsumoku...probably 1978. It is comparable to the PE-180 guitar. Same body, neck, etc.

**Archie** · 01-15-2016, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

Could be a Matsumoku built Emperor S, poss changed pickguard or logo removed and p/up selector tip.

Co-incidentally, the Matsumoku Emperor F's very often have the serial number field on the label left blank as well (as per the Kalamazoo type label in the ad listing)

The Japanese Epis made by Mat and the subsequent ones made by Terada I believe (Travis might be able to confirm that), all had a spaghetti type logo. If it doesnt have that then its 99% not a japanese one.

The one used on the guitar us more like the Korean one.

https://reverb.com/item/1535242-epip...tist-1980s-vsb

Im gonna go out on a lim and say I think its dodgy and hence why I originally said I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. The flower pot is wrong too.

Seems like someone has tried to make a Epi copy from a Hondo and some korean lettering whilst adding the wrong inlay. Or Epi went to the company that produced Hondo (probably Tokai) and asked them to produce a cheap L5, which would tbf make it much more interesting but I doubt that is the case. It could also be an early Epi model from Korea.

Either way it is a bottom of the line build.

**plasticpigeon** · 01-15-2016, 08:55 AM

I agree, that isn't an Epiphone, it some other cheaper brand, like a Hondo or old style Washburn J6. The headstock, fingerboard end, tailpiece, plain woods, and pickup selector switch on the non cutaway side are all tells. Quite a convincing looking gibson copy Grecian urn but I wonder if it is a sticker or something if one was to get up close.

**Greentone** · 01-15-2016, 09:52 AM

Which guitar are we talking about, now. I was referring to the second guitar--the one in ArchtopHeaven's comment above. To me, that is obviously a Mat. The first guitar...nope.

**pubylakeg** · 01-15-2016, 02:28 PM

Yeah, hopefully to clarify, the discussion on 2b's OP relates to a guitar of dubious origin,
My comment in post #12, relates to a different query about the label on a completely different guitar.

In further relation to post #11, Asian made Epiphone branded instruments (built by Matsumoku) were available from around 1970/71 onwards, but the higher spec Gibson-like guitars weren't to appear until the mid 70's.

For further reading try,

The Unofficial Epiphone Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphone

**2bornot2bop** · 01-15-2016, 04:59 PM

So no one knows anything about the "blue label" made in Japan Epi' L5 with the "kalamazoo, MI" sticker?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-Epiphon...wAAOSwHaBWlHoK

**Archie** · 01-15-2016, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

Yeah, hopefully to clarify, the discussion on 2b's OP relates to a guitar of dubious origin,
My comment in post #12, relates to a different query about the label on a completely different guitar.

In further relation to post #11, Asian made Epiphone branded instruments (built by Matsumoku) were available from around 1970/71 onwards, but the higher spec Gibson-like guitars weren't to appear until the mid 70's.

For further reading try,

The Unofficial Epiphone Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphone

Mat did make Epiphone but they are the ones in the second picture with the vine inlay and spaghetti logo. The logo on the first guitar pictured is more early 80's, being shaprer and more computerised in look.

It's either a fake hondo type badged as an Epi, or Epi went to the manufacturers of Hondo looking for them to make a cheap L5 after Mat burned down. One of the two. The second could be more than plausible but either way, it's not very valuable.