Disappointed in Roland GR-55 tracking

[jzucker]

I've been playing a Roland GR-33 which has very good tracking on all strings. Just got a GR-55 and the tracking is very disappointing, particularly on the low 2 strings. I've tweaked the pickup and all the sensitivity and velocity settings and spent hours with a local guy who's been playing and adjusting guitar synths for years. His GR-55 had the same issue with both his carvin holdsworth (ghost pickup) as well as my guitar (GK-33). His tracked slightly better due to the modification he did where he installed an internal board which reduces the bass response prior to the input hitting the pitch detection module.

I'm a very clean player so it's not my technique although we all noticed that it responds better to hammer-ons and pull-offs than picking every note. It seems that the pick response on the round wound low strings produces some sort of artifact which confuses it.

Not so on the GR-33.

I also spent an hour on the phone with a guy from vguitarforums who walked me through just about every system and GK parameter. He finally admitted that his GR-33 tracked better too.

So I'm returning the GR-55 which is disappointing because it sounds so much better. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

[Max405]

Jack, Hey buddy. I had a GR55 and I couldn't get along with it and I sold it. The infinite adjustments really didn't seem to help me. I didn't have the patience to alter my picking style. I think you have to find a grove that the pickup likes and then you have to stay with it. To me, it would have been easier to learn how to play the piano.
I am anxious to hear what you think of the SY..
Good having you back.
Joe D

[LtKojak]

I'm a GR-55 user with no tracking complains at all.

A good setup of the hex-p'up and a neck with no buzzes is all it takes.

But having a good technique is the key factor. You need to adapt in function of the sound chosen AND the part to be played as well. It's something it takes some getting used to. NOT for everybody, mind you.

HTH,

[Frank67]

Had a GR 55, couldn't bond with it and sold it in a hurry. Tracking never worked for me. I concluded that my picking is not good enough ... That obviously is not the case for Jack and Joe.

In the end I decided that I don't need to sound like a piano or a saxophone - the guitar sounds great and that's why I chose it in the first place :-)

[mr quick]

So bottom line is that I'm ditching the GR-55 and going back to the GR-33. I may try Roland's analog synth the SY-300...

Hey Jack, I've got an SY-300. If you have any questions, shoot! It's easier than me just rambling about it.

I use the SY-300 as my "everything" board. The mod-type guitar effects + reverb & delay are worthy enough that I don't need to use my 300-dollar chorus/phase/flang/trem pedal. I have made a few presets.
"Smokey Bop +VERB" - Tried getting a bright almost-breaking tube amp sound. Kind of like this.

CTL1 = Extra Reverb
"Clean enough" - Tried getting a LC/335/Steely Dan type tone. CTL1 = removes "Natural OD"
"Jazz Chorus" - Pretty straight forward, clean tone, very heavy on the chorus.
"Jazz Dist" - Chorus + bright distorted sound. Inspired by Yellowjackets/Robben Ford

(Guitar at 0:44)CTL = stadium-style delay.
"Jazz Clean" - Just clean.

Right now I'm working on combining oscillators and guitar input to get some more ambience
You have 3 oscillators, which can be set to a waveform or guitar input. Allows for some crazy experimentation.
Also, you can plug it into your computer and use Boss Tone Studio to do your settings. That's what I do. When plugged in, the PC gets connected with the unit to its output, so I also use it if I want to play using a backing track

I am considering making a longer thread about the unit when I have time

@Technique:

Jack, we've all heard you play. No one's second-guessing your technique, but the GR-55 sure does demand a different approach. That's probably why Metheny stuck with his GR-300 and I with my SY-300

[rpguitar]

I have an SY-300 too. There is no tracking as in the old daze - it just plays what you play, because it's modifying the envelope of the input signal. In that sense, it's simply great. You cannot "beat" it with your chops.

The sounds are not what you think they might be, though. In terms of useable pure synth tones, it is limited. IMHO, it works best as texture behind the guitar rather than as a solo voice. Read up on it at vguitarforums.com.

[rpguitar]

Quick sample of the SY-300 at a fast tempo (no musical value; for example only):

[rpguitar]

There is a preset called "Pat's Heritage" that is supposed to be, well - I guess it's obvious. It is meh in my opinion (I'm a big PM fan too). But like most Roland presets, it can be improved. I don't think it will literally copy the Pat GR sound, though, because it's based on a fundamentally different type of synthesis. And it doesn't have anything at all that sounds like the sampled tones in the more modern GR units.

I think the SY-300's biggest issue is the limited nature of its basic oscillators. It has sine, triangle, square, pulse width modulation, and noise. It excels at fuzzy sounds, but is weaker at smooth ones and hopeless at percussive ones. There is no simulating a Rhodes here, for example - it's can't do anything to get the percussive attack at the beginning of notes. This is why I like to hear the guitar simultaneously when I use it.

[rpguitar]

This is the preset called GR Lead:

https://soundcloud.com/rpguitar-1/sy-300-gr-lead

[Max405]

Had a GR 55, couldn't bond with it and sold it in a hurry. Tracking never worked for me. I concluded that my picking is not good enough ... That obviously is not the case for Jack and Joe.

In the end I decided that I don't need to sound like a piano or a saxophone - the guitar sounds great and that's why I chose it in the first place :-)

Hi Frankie,
I appreciate your sentiment buddy.
My picking is sloppy, noisy and not tailored to a Synth. Jack on the other hand, his picking is crystal clean.
You have to find a groove with these pickups, as you know. And then stay in it.
When I played the GR55, the sound would start out like a nice Piano. Then it would become a Sitar. Not good.

Thanks, Joe D.

[Max405]

P.S. Great playing in the first clip. That was the SY-300? I didn't realize that was you? You always sound fabulous.

Roger kicks booty.
I think synths work best when your picking and fingering style make distinct stops and starts between notes. If you tend to smooth one note into the other (like I do) then it doesn't work well.
Jack, thanks for coming back and trying out stuff and giving us your well earned opinion on things.
I may be picking your brain on pre-amps and Barbera transducers.. Once again, thanks for coming back.

Guys, the dudes a treasure. Listen to what he is saying. He deserves his opinion just like you do yours..

Joe D

[mr quick]

I thought the first clip you posted sounded more like his GR sound!

Keep in mind that he also has the guitar blended into it. I'll make a recording of my own, synth only, ASAP. Might have to do it tomorrow, I won't be home until 1-2 am.

[targuit]

I have to confess that I've had problems using my Roland GR-20 guitar synth with my Godin LGX- SA (synth access) guitar. I think that I made a mistake in choosing to go with the synth rather than the GI-20 which is for direct note input but does not have the synth sound palette. In retrospect I wish I had chosen the nylon string Godin Grand Concert SA guitar rather than the LGX which I thought would be more "versatile" at the time, not realizing that I would have a tough time coaxing a jazz tone out of the LGX.

One of the problems with the GR-20 is that there is more latency in the bass notes which makes timing a problem. I elected the synth over the GI-20 because I thought I could orchestrate my home recordings well. But the latency issue is a problem difficult to resolve. Or at least I have not figured out a good work around.

[jads57]

Apparently that what John McGlaughlin thinks a well, and I think we can all agree he picks faster than all ofus combined ,lol!

[medblues]

So no problem for slow and clean pickers with either GR-33 or GR-55 ?

[LtKojak]

I suspect it's because you don't play at the tempos/speed that I do. I routinely play 1/8 notes at 300bmp or greater.

I don't think I've ever had the opportunity of being challenged of playing any piece of music meeting such a requirement, let alone with a guitar synth.

What exactly do you play at that speed? "Flying of the Bumble Bee?

I'd really LOVE to hear you playing something at that speed in a musical context!

[LtKojak]

Huh? A huge amount of jazz is played at fast tempos. Not that this is the killingest playing but here's a recent example of the kind of tempos I play. It's not so unusual.

Fast tempos are alright; most bebop music consist in fast tempos.

However, to say that one can play 1/8 notes @ 300bmp sounds just like bragging to me... if you actually can cleanly play that fast, what piece/s specifically asks for it.

Also, how fast you can play on a guitar synth, it's the kind of sound you're using that dictates the max speed you can actually play. Fx, with a cello sound, producing a slow attack and release waveform, you can't play anything that's too fast as the law of physics of that sound just doesn't allow it.

That's why I said: "It's not the hammer, it's how you use it."

But you're welcome to blame it on the device's tracking all you want.

[mr quick]

In fact, the video was a bit of an inspiration since a couple of years ago, I memorized Pat's Impression solo and worked it up to 75% of full speed. So when I return to it and bring it up to full speed, I will be near that 300bpm magic number.


Just some thoughts that this thread generated. These thoughts and the fact that the GR-55 is not cheap, at least to my level of income. Around 700.00 or so...

1: Check out Pat Metheny's frankly WILD solo on "Impressions" using his famous GR-300 unit:
Because of this forum's formatting, I can't link to a specific time. I'd listen to all of it(Esbjörn Svensson, Nils Landgren & Michael Brecker!!!) but if not, skip to 12:10 for Metheny's solo. Extremely expressive and tasteful throughout. Especially impressed with the run @ 13:45.

2: Regarding price. I got my almost unused SY-300 for $350... just gotta find the right seller for this type of thing

[woland]

Interesting - I was considering selling my GR33 and upgrading to GR55. I own Ibanez AS120 with RMC saddle pickups and I was always a bit disappointed by the amount of artifacts it generated. I talked with RMC's Richard McClish recently and he suggested that GR55 with OPT-1 filter as a rock solid solution.
Did you try another box from Roland - GP-10?

[woland]

There is no simulating a Rhodes here, for example - it's can't do anything to get the percussive attack at the beginning of notes. This is why I like to hear the guitar simultaneously when I use it.

Interesting - I just pulled the trigger on EHX Key9 - should be here in a few days.
Hope it will do OK Rhodes.
So perhaps SY-300 would interesting box to combine it with.

[woland]

Interesting - I just pulled the trigger on EHX Key9 - should be here in a few days.
Hope it will do OK Rhodes.
So perhaps SY-300 would interesting box to combine it with.

So EHX Key-9 is in. Hmmm.... it is possible that I am completely clueless about how to use it correctly.
But I followed instructions and all the pointers I found on YT. And it leaves me COLD. In my hands this
thing is not musical. It does not sound like electric piano or organ. Not anywhere as close as GR-33.
It has definite latency you can feel. And it drops notes and creates artifacts when you play fast. And is
very very dark and bass'y. The only patch that was usable was Mallets. Maybe in a thick mix you could
use it but in a sparser music it just is not at all inspiring to me.