Prewar Epiphone question about truss rods or lack of

[wintermoon]

What kind of neck reinforcement would my guitar have?

Kinda hard to tell w out knowing what kind of guitar it is.

[Texas Bill]

Late 1934 Epiphone Triumph.

[wintermoon]

Late 1934 Epiphone Triumph.

Probably a non adjustable rod. I had a '35 Triumph w non adjustable.
The first adjustable "thrust rods" had adjustment at the base of the neck, around '37 iirc.

[Texas Bill]

Thanks

[deacon Mark]

If the guitar has a bit too much bow and needs attention you can do a compression refret. Just press and hammer in using a fret crimper. This works amazingly well because if you happen to overshoot a bit or just miss getting it where you need it, in the fret dressing it can come out well. I personally would do this on a guitar that had too much relief in the neck that I could not get the action where I like it.

[garybaldy]

If the guitar has a bit too much bow and needs attention you can do a compression refret. Just press and hammer in using a fret crimper. This works amazingly well because if you happen to overshoot a bit or just miss getting it where you need it, in the fret dressing it can come out well. I personally would do this on a guitar that had too much relief in the neck that I could not get the action where I like it.

Do you have to have the neck perfectly straight to do that or do you introduce a slight back bow?

[deacon Mark]

Do you have to have the neck perfectly straight to do that or do you introduce a slight back bow?

It is not science but also art involved. Take a reading of the relief of the neck with the frets currently on guitar. Removed all the strings and then take another reading of the relief. This gives you the amount of pull the neck is experiencing make sure the strings are the same gauge you normally use. It really does not matter if the neck is straight as such but more the amount of relief tension on the neck induces. Depending upon what you find determines the neck step.

Sometimes you need to plane the FB a little other times not so much. Then remove the frets and take another relief reading to see what the frets induced in the relief equation, although this is without tension and helpful in seeing if might need to plane the FB. Then start refretting in the middle of the FB frets 5-12. When you get these in you take and measure the FB relief as you go. Depending on what happens and what you see will determine the next steps. If the relief is getting pulled out faster and back bow that is not bad but you have to work the tang with a fret barber to give you the ideal relief. The frets on the neck extension do not add much to the equation but near the nut they add more but at less change.

Ideally, I have found that normally a slight back bow, not much when all frets are in will get you pretty close once you get the guitar strung back up. This is why you need all those fret relief measurements. In the final dressing of the frets you then can work out and small differences. I would want to add this is a most difficult and tedious, time consuming type of fretting a guitar. It is not done much and probably some super great luthiers handle this well and do it more often.

Case in point. My 37 D'angelico NY has no truss rod but a rolled steel bar was installed in the neck by John. It is a pretty big and hefty neck but when all the strings are off the guitar there is a very slight back bow. Then stringing the guitar up, it comes out almost dead flat with small amount are relief. It is not perfectly flat but the relief is not much and less than most guitars made in that era. I have no idea the process John might have done but damn.......it is brilliant and accurate.

[garybaldy]

It is not science but also art involved. Take a reading of the relief of the neck with the frets currently on guitar. Removed all the strings and then take another reading of the relief. This gives you the amount of pull the neck is experiencing make sure the strings are the same gauge you normally use. It really does not matter if the neck is straight as such but more the amount of relief tension on the neck induces. Depending upon what you find determines the neck step.

Sometimes you need to plane the FB a little other times not so much. Then remove the frets and take another relief reading to see what the frets induced in the relief equation, although this is without tension and helpful in seeing if might need to plane the FB. Then start refretting in the middle of the FB frets 5-12. When you get these in you take and measure the FB relief as you go. Depending on what happens and what you see will determine the next steps. If the relief is getting pulled out faster and back bow that is not bad but you have to work the tang with a fret barber to give you the ideal relief. The frets on the neck extension do not add much to the equation but near the nut they add more but at less change.

Ideally, I have found that normally a slight back bow, not much when all frets are in will get you pretty close once you get the guitar strung back up. This is why you need all those fret relief measurements. In the final dressing of the frets you then can work out and small differences. I would want to add this is a most difficult and tedious, time consuming type of fretting a guitar. It is not done much and probably some super great luthiers handle this well and do it more often.

Case in point. My 37 D'angelico NY has no truss rod but a rolled steel bar was installed in the neck by John. It is a pretty big and hefty neck but when all the strings are off the guitar there is a very slight back bow. Then stringing the guitar up, it comes out almost dead flat with small amount are relief. It is not perfectly flat but the relief is not much and less than most guitars made in that era. I have no idea the process John might have done but damn.......it is brilliant and accurate.

Thank you so much. Very interesting.

[Rickco]

I have a '35 Broadway, had it refretted. the action now can go to 3/64 without buzz with 13-56 neck is a very comfy .84-.97. I was concerned about the lack of adjustable truss rod but these necks are stable and could probably go a gauge higher as they were intended to. This walnut 16" is an incredible instrument and can be an exceptional buy when found in decent condition. Im pretty sure my Epi would sound as good as Treniers "Broadway" if Grasso was playing it and heres a shot of Jonathan Stout enjoying it right before the refret.

[wintermoon]

I have a '35 Broadway, had it refretted. the action now can go to 3/64 without buzz with 13-56 neck is a very comfy .84-.97. I was concerned about the lack of adjustable truss rod but these necks are stable and could probably go a gauge higher as they were intended to. This walnut 16" is an incredible instrument and can be an exceptional buy when found in decent condition. Im pretty sure my Epi would sound as good as Treniers "Broadway" if Grasso was playing it and heres a shot of Jonathan Stout enjoying it right before the refret.

I can hear it saying 'give me my open back Grovers and trapeze t.p. back' from here

[Rickco]

It came to me with the schallers tho fact is I hate the open back original tuners much prefer the schallers and would have changed them anyway. Just got a guitar with new gold waverlys, couldnt wait to get em off and gave them to my tech as a gift. The tailpiece is another matter. I really like the classic epi double but not for this model, this was a late '35 transition (36 neck) and had a trapeze which broke. It was included but the ibanez tp was used for replacement. I was able to slip the original string transom on so its ?% original however the one I would like on there is in picture. Not sure what year it was and very rare but I think it was very close to 35 and as transition might have missed it by a year or two. I think TRM had one like that. Either way thats how it came and it was very playable when recieved but now it truly plays like butter with the refret.

[wintermoon]

It came to me with the schallers tho fact is I hate the open back original tuners much prefer the schallers and would have changed them anyway. Just got a guitar with new gold waverlys, couldnt wait to get em off and gave them to my tech as a gift. The tailpiece is another matter. I really like the classic epi double but not for this model, this was a late '35 transition (36 neck) and had a trapeze which broke. It was included but the ibanez tp was used for replacement. I was able to slip the original string transom on so its ?% original however the one I would like on there is in picture. Not sure what year it was and very rare but I think it was very close to 35 and as transition might have missed it by a year or two. I think TRM had one like that. Either way thats how it came and it was very playable when recieved but now it truly plays like butter with the refret.

That t.p. was introduced w the larger body 17 3/8" models. Not sure how close it would come to the bridge on your 16 1/2" guitar, though TRM has a 16" DA w a retrofitted stairstep t.p. that seems to be OK.
Finding one that you pictured that's not currently on a guitar would be a needle in a haystack search, I've seen maybe 2 in my life for sale that weren't broken.