New Straight Ahead Jazz Tube Amp

[abelljo]

I don't post much here or any forum for the most part. I have a regular job as many musicians do, especially those that like playing jazz. But on the side I'm a tech. I have been working on guitars and amps for at least 20 years. Building tube amps and fiddling around with different ideas. Working on guitars and finding what things work and what things don't. I have had may vintage and boutique archtops. Now I enjoy my 18" Jaen and a 17" D'Angelico EXl-1. I also like my 335 and Tele. So, considering myself a guitarist first and a tech second I want to post this question for those of you that feel the world needs yet another amp targeted at the jazz crowd.

I realize that everyone has their own taste and requirements, but most of those will have to be addressed via pedals and or the guitar. I really want to keep it simple.

A small combo perhaps with Reverb.
I only want to offer one model and one option. So I seek your help on a general consensus of what a good starting point or clean canvas would be in terms of a good solid tube amp that will cover straight ahead jazz. I know Rivera, Vintage Sound, Alesandro and others have made at least one model targeted at the jazz crowd, but I have tried some of these and they don't sound like I would want my own amp to sound.

I have a few opinions that might be contrary to what many of you think, but I will mention them to gauge what the consensus is.

Many boutique guitars out there are more of an acoustic compared to for example a 175, and other ES guitars. These new "modern" archtops may benefit more from a solid state or even an acoustic guitar amp. Round wound strings etc. That is not the tone I'm going after with this amp. I do own a Henriksen and think it is a a great little amp for many applications....

So, that being said. I'm aiming at the west coast jazz tones of the 60s. Wes, Grant Green Burrell and those cats. I know what they recorded with and what was used. So this gives me a good starting point. I'd like your opinion on the following:

Speaker configuration?
Speaker voice? ie. brands etc?
Size/weight, what's acceptable?
Wattage?
Tone stack?
What's your favorite tube amp?
Do you think a new tube amp in the market is necessary or viable?
Would you buy it?
What is a fair price point?


From my own standpoint and prejudice this is what I would build for my self. But I don't know that this is what everyone else would want:

I would make it simple.
Volume, Treble, Middle, Bass and Reverb
2 very efficient 10" speakers that are light weight. Maybe with a vintage twist. Jensens NEOs or something along those lines.
2 6L6 power tubes solid state rectifier for tighter feel.
My favorite amp is the super reverb, so I would select a tone stack similar to that of a blackface with some upgrades for more headroom and tighter bottom end.

I would NOT add all those frills, such as pentode triode switch, half power switch, channel switching or any other thing. I would want it to be clean and slick and simple. And affordable for all musicians. Remember the less crap the more affordable and easy to use it will be. Oh and lighter too.

[entresz]

I would personally be interested in an amp such as you described. It seems to me that the amps I have liked the most have usually been the most simple. One feature that I think would be interesting to have would be a switch to choose between a blackface (dipped mids) sound and a tweed sound.

[abelljo]

Thanks, that could be accomplished to a certain degree with a switch that could allow to bring a different value coupling cap in to the signal chain, but that would not give the amp a 100 true tweed tone as the tone stack on most tweed amps is completely different. But one could mimic certain aspects. The other thing that can be done is to use a 25k mid pot instead of the usual 10k mid pot BF amps used.

[edh]

This is a great subject.

You're on the right track with a sound such as Wes and Kenny Burrell in my books. If you can duplicate the tones these guys got out of their rig, at a reasonable price, that would be great.

[docbop]

I you like a Super Reverb that's your answer. If you want 2x10 get a new cabinet made for it, that's what one of the locals did and it's a really nice size and sound.

[abelljo]

Those guys recorded with a Tweed deluxe in may cases. Many of them used the Super reverb as in the case of Wes. The Ampeg Gemini was a very popular amp those days. Then some solid states amps started appearing such as the Standel Wes used. But Fender amps were plentiful at many jazz clubs, so many of those live recordings were played through BF Fenders I'm sure. Back then people used what was available. I think the gearhead is a more recent phenomenon...

[docbop]

Those guys recorded with a Tweed deluxe in may cases. Many of them used the Super reverb as in the case of Wes. The Ampeg Gemini was a very popular amp those days. Then some solid states amps started appearing such as the Standel Wes used. But Fender amps were plentiful at many jazz clubs, so many of those live recordings were played through BF Fenders I'm sure. Back then people used what was available. I think the gearhead is a more recent phenomenon...

As I believe Barney Kessel put it about amps back then..... If an amp works, it's a good amp.

[abelljo]

Yea, but I will make a smaller chassis. I think a single channel amp is more than adequate. The Super is too heavy and bulky. I like 12" speakers, but one speaker can sometimes sounds too directional and focused might and lack dimension. 8" speakers would be great if there were more options, but options in 8" speakers are limited. I think a 10" speaker is a good compromise and most speaker designs that come in 12" are also available in 10".

Would 1,500 be too expensive for a hand wired tube amp? Henriksen and other solid state amps are in the 1k range. The problem with tube technology is that it is expensive....

[abelljo]

LOL, never heard that quote, but he is right to some extent. A good player will make any amp sound good. But most average player have experienced an amp that require endless tweaking to the point of frustration. They have also experienced plugging into a great amp and no matter how you set the knobs, every sound is useful and musical....

[curbucci]

Jeff of ToneTron amps will build you one to your sonic specifications..

ToneTron Amps-Custom Hand-Built Guitar Tube Amplifiers - ToneTron Amplifiers

https://www.facebook.com/ToneTron-Am...04122/?fref=ts

He makes one acoustic tube amp for a cello which sounds like it could be a good jazz amp. I think he makes those in 15 - 50 watt.

[GNAPPI]

Yea, but I will make a smaller chassis. I think a single channel amp is more than adequate. The Super is too heavy and bulky. I like 12" speakers, but one speaker can sometimes sounds too directional and focused might and lack dimension. 8" speakers would be great if there were more options, but options in 8" speakers are limited. I think a 10" speaker is a good compromise and most speaker designs that come in 12" are also available in 10".

Would 1,500 be too expensive for a hand wired tube amp? Henriksen and other solid state amps are in the 1k range. The problem with tube technology is that it is expensive....

One channel with TWO 10" speakers maybe even set in a "V" to project to the sides a bit like the old disco speakers did!

[eddy b.]

I had a 65 watt 2x10 music man amp, that was the best amp I've ever owned. I lost in the Flood after Katrina , but if you can build something close to that amp and make it weigh less than 40 lbs, and make it look classy I'd buy it for 1,200-1,500.

[boatheelmusic]

I know you don't want to complicate things, but a blackface/baxandall (ampeg) tone stack switch may be very appealing to this crowd.

[DanielleOM]

Anyone look at the VHT Special Six? I think it's the lowest cost hand wired point to point amp available today.

Danielle

[Franz 1997]

I know you don't want to complicate things, but a blackface/baxandall (ampeg) tone stack switch may be very appealing to this crowd.

+1 to that. Many find the AB763 ( blackface) tone stack to be too mid-scooped for a fat top string sound.

Worth remembering that there are lots of fender amp variants out there, a few already targeted at jazz users.
I'd have thought a non-blackface tonal approach stood more chance of standing out from the crowd - although I understand it's your preferred approach. Like the idea of twin 8 speakers.

[abelljo]

I like the slight V shape an a cabinet, but it might increase the price a bit since if I do it I will most likely outsource the cabinets. The ampeg circuit is a great idea, but Fender has stood the test of time for a reason. The complain about the mid scoop on BF Fender is universal among Jazz players, but that is easily tweaked. Will a tweed bassman or tweed Deluxe tone stack be a better option? I have done it in the past with some nice results, but had some issued integrating he reverb with the tone control functionality. Because it was so sensitive I got too much noise out of the reverb circuit. The switching can be as simple as switching let's say between a .047 an .02 CC. That can make a difference, sort of like a subtle mid shape switch..

The thing with tweed style circuits is that they can be hairy. Although you can make the amp clean via a heftier power section, it might make the amp a little to clinical sounding. Imagine a 60 Tweed Deluxe...I think people like the Deluxe because of the organic qualities. Make in it too clean by putting larger tubes, transformer and beefier speaker might rob from the qualities and benefits of the design itself. I think 1,200 would be the magical number. But there I say China for the chassis?

I have to do the match, but I'd be looking at making at least 100 to 150 amps a year. With some help of course. If there is a market I'll go for it. If not feel free to contact me in a PM for standard clone amp builds.

I like how that VHT sounds. Only 6 watts though!

Guys, thanks for all your input!

[boatheelmusic]

The idea was a switchable blackface/ampeg tone stack, not one or the other......

[GNAPPI]

Lookig at price, there's (IMO) absolutely no reason to have a hand wired power supply, a PCB PS has the advantage of being faster to build.

[marcwhy]

Sounds like a cool project overall! The 2x10 combo, however, would probably be a deal breaker for me -- too much to carry! I have heads and cabs, so if you had a head version, or a smaller combo, I'd be more interested in the idea. The price is reasonable, though.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I know you don't want to complicate things, but a blackface/baxandall (ampeg) tone stack switch may be very appealing to this crowd.

I'm less of a fan of the scooped blackface sound. Just baxandall would be fine. Or is it possible to get a Fender tweed sound that doesn't break up early?

Plus another vote for a head option. Lots of folks already have cabinets and may want to mix and match.

Reverb? I got a pedal for that.

[abelljo]

Agreed, the only thing is that I would make it hand wired initially. But you're correct, especially with a solid sate rectifier.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Agreed, the only thing is that I would make it hand wired initially. But you're correct, especially with a solid sate rectifier.

Agree about the SS rectifier.

[docdosco]

I don't post much here or any forum for the most part. I have a regular job as many musicians do, especially those that like playing jazz. But on the side I'm a tech. I have been working on guitars and amps for at least 20 years. Building tube amps and fiddling around with different ideas. Working on guitars and finding what things work and what things don't. I have had may vintage and boutique archtops. Now I enjoy my 18" Jaen and a 17" D'Angelico EXl-1. I also like my 335 and Tele. So, considering myself a guitarist first and a tech second I want to post this question for those of you that feel the world needs yet another amp targeted at the jazz crowd.

I realize that everyone has their own taste and requirements, but most of those will have to be addressed via pedals and or the guitar. I really want to keep it simple.

A small combo perhaps with Reverb.
I only want to offer one model and one option. So I seek your help on a general consensus of what a good starting point or clean canvas would be in terms of a good solid tube amp that will cover straight ahead jazz. I know Rivera, Vintage Sound, Alesandro and others have made at least one model targeted at the jazz crowd, but I have tried some of these and they don't sound like I would want my own amp to sound.

I have a few opinions that might be contrary to what many of you think, but I will mention them to gauge what the consensus is.

Many boutique guitars out there are more of an acoustic compared to for example a 175, and other ES guitars. These new "modern" archtops may benefit more from a solid state or even an acoustic guitar amp. Round wound strings etc. That is not the tone I'm going after with this amp. I do own a Henriksen and think it is a a great little amp for many applications....

So, that being said. I'm aiming at the west coast jazz tones of the 60s. Wes, Grant Green Burrell and those cats. I know what they recorded with and what was used. So this gives me a good starting point. I'd like your opinion on the following:

Speaker configuration?
Speaker voice? ie. brands etc?
Size/weight, what's acceptable?
Wattage?
Tone stack?
What's your favorite tube amp?
Do you think a new tube amp in the market is necessary or viable?
Would you buy it?
What is a fair price point?


From my own standpoint and prejudice this is what I would build for my self. But I don't know that this is what everyone else would want:

I would make it simple.
Volume, Treble, Middle, Bass and Reverb
2 very efficient 10" speakers that are light weight. Maybe with a vintage twist. Jensens NEOs or something along those lines.
2 6L6 power tubes solid state rectifier for tighter feel.
My favorite amp is the super reverb, so I would select a tone stack similar to that of a blackface with some upgrades for more headroom and tighter bottom end.

I would NOT add all those frills, such as pentode triode switch, half power switch, channel switching or any other thing. I would want it to be clean and slick and simple. And affordable for all musicians. Remember the less crap the more affordable and easy to use it will be. Oh and lighter too.

I would like a re-issue the G60VR Pignose 60 watt valve tube amp. That won't happen from Pignose, so that little niche is open right now. I have one unit in pieces in the loft, but the other has functioned like a champ for 10 years. I thought I had fried part of the circuit board when there was a nasty power surge on a gig and one preamp tube wouldn't light up. I tried some spare tubes I have here but the replacement tubes seemed dead and the amp sounded weak and distorted. I had Eureka moment and I pulled an original 12AX7A from the Pignose parts amp and, bingo it fired up fine.

Here it is. It hasn't been made for 5 years at least. Pignose G-60VR Guitar Tube Combo Amp | Musician's Friend

It was designed by the guy from Ampeg (I forget his name) I also inquired about WGS 12" speaker models. They may be just the ticket. I will put WGS on the list for a visit at NAMM.

A post with more speaker info.

https://wgs4.com/pignose-g60vr-60-watt-valve-tube-amp

I tried to get one at cost from their artist relations guy. I figured that I am not famous enough to get a freebie speaker. However, one sold to me wholesale and the company doesn't lose any money & I get somewhat of a deal. And I post about it if I like it. However I never got a reply. I guess I am not famous enough to get one a cost either. That kinda sucks. Evidently, they don't know who they are dealing with! (which is probably why they blew me off) However, at NAMM I will have more time and I can utilize my winning personality I typoed winny (short for whiney) first, so there's the problem. No one likes a whiney musician.

The spring reverb is nice. That brand is a keeper. The tone pots are cheap and do not offer a very wide range. I could have easily been satisfied if the tone pots had more depth. However, the amp sounds really sweet flat, no EQ in a neutral room, I keep the tone knobs flat unless the room is too dead acoustically (lots of carpets) or too live (with tile or concrete), So, I never much use the tone controls. But better pots and knob would be a help. It does have a minimum of noisy tone pots on it as it is. That aspect could have been better. Any cheap parts are an issue that is easily remedied through in a recreation of the style of the Pignose 60 watt combo amp (which itself seemed just a slightly modernized Ampeg 50 watt Reverb- A- Rocket II. I had one when I was a kid)

So, here would be my pitch. Even with cheap pots and tubes (I switched out the 2 6L6 and the 4 12AX7A) and even with the Jensen speaker, this is a killer design. A better speaker, tubes, better pots, and a bit more stylish cabinet and you have a boutique version of the Pignose 60 watt combo amp (street price $549, list $700 something). In today's market, a boutique 60 watt valve tube amp would be what... $1000. $1250? more?(I was told that the British use of valve - which is another term for tubes, is a design element in which the tubes are placed in a certain order as a feature. Maybe to bypass the cheap noicy pots.(maybe the term valve here designates slightly more efficient headroom). At 44 pounds, it is somewhat lighter compared to even the 25 watt Fender Champ SE tubes and way, way less than Fender Super 60 tubes. Both of those have 12" speakers and are constructed out of wood thick enough for a casket. The 40 watt, 10" speaker tube amp didn't do it for me. Under powered, it distorted easy, and was not a sweet and full sound. 60 watt with the 12" speaker tube niche is what I am aiming for. After I could no longer get this amp ( I did get both Pignose 60s at cost though... yeah!) I looked around. Carver made a 50 watt tube. Oh... here:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...e+amp&tbm=shop

Not a real specific jazz design in the bunch.

I found this :

Rivera Jazz Suprema 25 1x10" 25-Watt Tube Combo | Sweetwater.com

$1399 for a 25 watt, 10". Are these golden watts? That is damn pricey for an amp that seems underpowered and weighs 49 pounds!

I believe there is a market for a 60 watt jazz tube amp with a 12 and the feature set of the Pignose. Old school tube amp, spring reverb, one channel, 3 volume controls, master, gain and something else. Low, high switch. Treble, middle, bass, presence. The beauty is that it is perfect for straight ahead jazz, but it has a high and low gain switch. I use the low, but high gain friggin smokes for blues, and it is really loud. For a large commercial run of amps, the high/low was imperative, as most guys that bought this amp were blues players. Besides myself, I don't know any jazz guys with this amp, except for the few players that I talked into buying it. However, I am sure some other jazz guy must have used it as it was small and compact for a tube amp, it sounded great and sold for $549.

Damn, that was a lot of typing.

Doc Dosco

[medblues]

Anyone look at the VHT Special Six? I think it's the lowest cost hand wired point to point amp available today.

Danielle

I bought the amp based on that clip (recorded by a forum member). I have the head version and I just played it yesterday through an Eminence Lil Buddy loaded Avatar cab. Very jazzy for home level loudness. It targets to emulate a Fender Champ though which is not a typical jazz amp.

[boatheelmusic]

A lot of this sounds like a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe......12", 40watts, spring reverb, 6L6's, etc.....

With some judicious tube rolling and installing a Cannabis Rex, a great value used too.