Acoustic archtop vs D-shaped hole Gypsy Guitar

[nonresemblance]

Edit: O snap, I mean D shaped/Oval shaped hole gypsy jazz guitar compared to Archtop Acoustic guitars. Can anybody sign me up for proof reading 101?

Tried posting the same question in another forum but didn't get any response :/

[Greentone]

I think you may need to explain what a (D-hole/o is. Probably, plenty of people know, but I don't...and I've played guitar for 50 years. Willing to help you out, but I need some guidance, first.

[rpguitar]

Do you mean an archtop vs. a flattop... or an archtop with f-holes vs. an archtop with a round, oval, or D-shaped hole? I'm guessing the former.

If so, listen to them on YouTube - it's generally a very large difference in tone.

[nonresemblance]

Sorry guys I meant I mean D shaped/Oval shaped hole Gypsy jazz guitars compared with Archtop acoustic gutiars. I need to learn to proof read before posting..

[Greentone]

The Selmer/Maccaferri-style guitar is similar in function to the archtop guitar, but is some ways is more like a classical guitar. It has typically a long-scale (26") like many classical guitars. It has a wide, very flat fretboard--not a radiused fretboard like an archtop. The top of the Selmer-style is bent at the bridge, but not really arched. The archtop is carved, like a violin or cello.

The Selmer, like the archtop, gets a loud, bright, non-sustaining tone, that was favored by Django and is now widely utilized by the Gypsy musicians. It is, IMO, an arresting sound.

I think that the closest cousin is, oddly, the Ovation acoustic guitar--when it is played in a manner not to get a jangly, sustaining tone.

[ESCC]

I've been called a D-hole a couple of times, but I don't think that answers the question.

[Klatu]

D Hole gypsy guitars were the first guitars built by Selmer using Maccaferri's designs. A few years later, the design changed to the o hole. The main difference between the two models is that the D Hole guitars were 25 1/2" scale,12 fret instruments while the o Holes were 26 3/8", 14 frets. As a result, the older D Hole models began to be treated as rhythm instruments whereas the o Holes would be considered lead instruments.

Nowadays, both D and o Hole guitars are often built using longer scale 14 fret configurations. Some claim that the D hole models project a bit more like flat top guitars, but I haven't been able to tell the difference as clearly as others.

[nonresemblance]

The Selmer/Maccaferri-style guitar is similar in function to the archtop guitar, but is some ways is more like a classical guitar. It has typically a long-scale (26") like many classical guitars. It has a wide, very flat fretboard--not a radiused fretboard like an archtop. The top of the Selmer-style is bent at the bridge, but not really arched. The archtop is carved, like a violin or cello.

The Selmer, like the archtop, gets a loud, bright, non-sustaining tone, that was favored by Django and is now widely utilized by the Gypsy musicians. It is, IMO, an arresting sound.

I think that the closest cousin is, oddly, the Ovation acoustic guitar--when it is played in a manner not to get a jangly, sustaining tone.

Thanks for the awesome reply. Although I know you mentioned that they are similar sounding but now to think of it, do their different scales and top shapes affects the sound?

[nonresemblance]

I've been called a D-hole a couple of times, but I don't think that answers the question.

Sounds better than being called an A-hole. Just kidding.

[Stringswinger]

I own two Gypsy guitars (A D hole and an oval hole made by Maurice Dupont, arguably the best luthier alive making these guitars) and five acoustic archtops (A vintage Epiphone, two vintage D'Angelicos and two Guilds, one of which was made to Bob Benedetto's specs). I have owned many others over the years of both types. I should be able to provide some guidance here.

The question has no clear answer as every acoustic guitar sounds different. Gypsy guitars in general are brighter and louder which make them great for use in a noisy venue when playing unamplified. But they are also different (flatter radius, wider fingerboard and longer scale...usually 26 3/8). Django fanatics are sometimes (often?) militant in their advocacy of the Gypsy guitar. Most Gypsy guitars that I have played do not sound that great (Bob Benedetto once opined that to him Gypsy jazz sounded like great guitarists playing poor quality guitars), but the best of them are up there with the best archtops. Vintage acoustic archtops were made for cut and volume while most modern acoustic archtops are made to be amplified. I have played some vintage acoustic archtops that were too bright and tinny and have played some wonderful Gypsy guitars that sound great (like the two that I own).

Gypsy guitars require particular strings that wear out fast and very few luthiers know how to properly care for them. The quasi-classical necks and different dot markers may be a hindrance to the playing of those used to American guitars. They are difficult to play well and to sound their best require a particular style of picking that is used by the European Gypsy community.

IMO, the archtop guitar is King. The Gypsy guitar is interesting, but consider this; back in the 1930's when the guitar became a serious instrument in the jazz world, there was competition. Gibson introduced the archtop (copied by Epiphone and D'Angelico), Martin introduced the Dreadnaught and Selmer of France introduced the Gypsy guitar. The archtop won in the jazz world, the dreadnaught wound up being even more successful in the folk and Country music world and the Gypsy guitar faded into obscurity.

I would consider both types of guitar for an acoustic jazz guitar, but bear in mind the particular difficulties that you will face with the Gypsy guitar (they are a bitch to sell...very small market) and play before you buy (or make sure that you have an approval period).

Hope that helped.

Cheers,

Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com

[Greentone]

Also consider that Django switched to the archtop.

[Woody Sound]

Gypsy guitars require particular strings that wear out fast and very few luthiers know how to properly care for them.

I didn't know this, interesting. How are they different?

[tootZ]

The strings are lighter than on an archtop (10 or 11), the most kown brand is Argentine, I change mine every 3 monthes,
there a lot of luthier in France who make these guitars, Dupont is not the only one to be excellent (except for his cheapest one, still expensive but not so good)
Dell Arte (US brand) makes gipsy guitars, US or China made, I have a chinese one, not so bad (but the top is completely flat, good guitar to begin gipsy style, around 700€ euros in France)
these guitars need some action and the traditional neck is square
last thing: acoustic archtops in France are SO expensive (US used or custom made by a local luthier, means at least
3 000€), here if you want to play acoustic jazz it's easier to have a gipsy guitar (an listen please to guys like Boulou Ferré, they play jazz, not only gipsy style, with gipsy guitars and sound...jazzy!

[D.G.]

Also consider that Django switched to the archtop.

Django used a borrowed archtop when he came to the States to play with Duke Ellington. This is because he didn't bring a guitar with him. You'll see lots of photos with him playing various kinds of guitars, but he really stuck with the Selmer, using a Stimer pickup for his amplified work.

[D.G.]

To the OP:

Gypsy guitars sound like banjos next to archtop guitars which sound like thuddy middy boxes next to flattops. BUT, if you want the gypsy sound, a gyspy guitar is the only way to go. Yes, you can play the style on anything, but it won't sound the same.

In terms of acoustic volume in an ensemble, its:

1. Resonator guitars
2. Gypsy guitars
3. Archtops
4. Flattops

Of course, once you bring pickups and amplification into the picture, it all goes sideways

[D.G.]

I would consider both types of guitar for an acoustic jazz guitar, but bear in mind the particular difficulties that you will face with the Gypsy guitar (they are a bitch to sell...very small market) and play before you buy (or make sure that you have an approval period).

Don't forget, gypsy guitar are a bear to amplify! I've tried about every system out there and they all suck in one way or another. I just put a Bigtone into my guitar (I already have a Duncan MagMic installed as well) and went down to the local GC to test it out with a Fishman Loudbox. I could get a sound I could use with either pickup and some heavy, heavy processing with a Baggs ParaDI, but it still didn't really sound at all like the guitar. Then I picked up a little Taylor GS, plugged it straight into the amp, set everything to neutral and it sounded exactly like the guitar only louder. I thought I was gonna cry

[neatomic]

but archtops draw the ladies...haha



django came to the states thinking he was going to be given guitars and get endorsements...didn't quite work out


cheers

[Stringswinger]

D.G. you are spot on regarding amplifying a Gypsy guitar. It is tough. Magnetic pickups work best for real world gigging. A microphone is great forva stage with a good soundman, but overall it is way easier to get a good amplified sound from a flattop or an acoustic archtop.

Nothing comes easy in the world of Gypsy guitars...

[Woody Sound]

but archtops draw the ladies...haha

Is it just me, or are 40's ladies the absolutely sexiest creatures that ever existed?

<Sorry if I offend our many talented women here, just sayin from my gut...>

[MysticBob]

Ah, at last!! Woody Sound has found an interesting point to this thread

[oldane]

Is it just me, or are 40's ladies the absolutely sexiest creatures that ever existed

I used to think so back in the 40's.

[MysticBob]

1946 ES-330 and a 'Broad' like that. Surprised Django ever went back to France............

.........nah, on second thoughts, I'm not. Selmer and Parisien girls, no contest!

[Cunamara]

Django used a borrowed archtop when he came to the States to play with Duke Ellington. This is because he didn't bring a guitar with him. You'll see lots of photos with him playing various kinds of guitars, but he really stuck with the Selmer, using a Stimer pickup for his amplified work.

He reportedly hated the archtop guitars he found in the US (referred to them as "tin pots," IIRC) and had his friend Charles Delaunay fly to the US and bring his Sel-Mac. Given the difference in feel between a Sel-Mac with typically very light gauge strings and an archtop with 14s or 15s at the time, I am not surprised Django didn't like the latter.

[Jabberwocky]

Also consider that Django switched to the archtop.

Lore has it that Django hated the Gibson L5 archtop he had to play on his US tour. He could not wait to "switch" to his Selmer-Maccaferri guitars back home in Paris.

A study of the plans for a Selmer guitar is quite instructive Selmer Maccaferri guitar plan . The top of a Selmer guitar has ladder bracing and "pliage" which is a way of bending an arch on the top.

Of what I have heard from the listener's seat, I like the tone of the Big Mouth Grande Bouche D-Hole best.

[Jabberwocky]

1946 ES-330 and a 'Broad' like that. Surprised Django ever went back to France............

.........nah, on second thoughts, I'm not. Selmer and Parisien girls, no contest!

An ES-300, you mean, sir. I wonder what became of it. That was a pretty saucy photo for its day. Nice pair of gams. But, of course, that comment would get me tarred and feathered in a university campus of today. I still can't get over the incident that a feminist threatened to kill me for a thousand-yard stare in her direction...