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You are absolutely correct on all points, I too have wonderfully made Asian gits from D'Angelico, Gretsch, Epiphone, and Ibanez, but like many other things some products have staying power despite their shortcomings... motorcycles and Gibson come to mind :-)
Originally Posted by wildschwein
It's not surprising how these products with issues develop loyal followings despite their problems and will always remain desirable AND more sellable when other products that are supposedly "better" may be considered disposable... like my well used Jap bike will be some day.
Gibsons will always have a following to keep the good ones in shape for the next generation of players. The mindset "I'll take the Epi (or other less valued git) to that cold rainy gig instead of my ES-175" assures that.
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11-10-2015 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagelove
I have received a lot of feedback, as I sell Peerless (and have for coming up 10 years). I see a lot of their jazz guitars. FOR THE MONEY Peerless is a fine guitar maker. Not every Peerless is a dream guitar, and certainly everyone's cup of tea, but the number of actual clunkers is very, very rare. I have had a few that needed extra TLC in the set-up and if there are issues at all, it is that the some finishes have a pimple or 2.
It is not really fair to compare a $2000 carved top jazz box to a guitar that costs 4 or 5 times as much new, however I will take Peerless quality against Gibson any day of the week. It is sad that such an icon of American guitars is such a sorry mess of a brand now.
So, although I am biased, I would agree that Peerless makes better guitars for the money than Gibson does now. However many of the cheap Chinese knock-offs are now better than Gibson if you swap out the electronics and hardware, so the bar isn't very high anymore. And, apparently the electronics / hardware quality in the new Gibson guitars is now circling the bowl.
Oh well....
Doc Dosco
Doc Dosco -- Jazz Guitar
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Play what you love and can afford. Gibson players aren't usually in the market for Peerless, but the latter are probably a good value. Any well set up archtop is probably better than trying to get a decent jazz tone on a strat (and lets not go there, of course you can play jazz on a strat. I have 4 of them, and it's not my first choice for jazz, but YMMV.)
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I've only bought one Gibson new - - it was a 2011 L6-S Reissue. The fit and finish of it was very good, my only criticism is that the frets were very flat, not crowned properly. It started to develop fret buzz within a few months due to that. I have played a couple newer Gibsons that I was not all that impressed by, but I've also played some that were pretty darn good.
I think the build quality of Gibson is still reasonable, but I think the best thing to do is to try before you buy, especially for a more expensive instrument like a Gibson.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Well, I'm not sure how you would get better than my monarch, fit, finish, fretwork, intonation, and tuning are superb. Playability wise, it is unbelievable. Maybe I got a special one. The Gibson is good too, but there is certainly no magic ingredient peerless is missing, and I sure as hell didn't need a luthier to make the instrument play correctly after the fact.
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Tone. It's worth it to me to put money into a refret on my 50 year old gibson because nothing new (including new gibsons) sounds like it. Certainly not eastman or peerless but yes, if you like shiny new guitars, there is nothing wrong with peerless, eastman, ibanez, etc. I would put ibanez at the top of that list though. Originally Posted by vintagelove
I can't think of any peerless or eastman guitar tone I've ever heard as being one of the classic jazz guitar tones. Then again, I'm biased. I listen to the tone, I don't care about how the instrument looks.
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This post implies that others don't primarily listen to tone. Very presumptuous. Originally Posted by jzucker
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I know a local blues musician who purchased a new ES335. His guitar tech was unable to correctly intonate the instrument. Close inspection revealed that the bridge had been incorrectly placed on the body, thereby making accurate intonation impossible. He took the 335 back and bought something else. This serves to illustrate the clear fact that Gibson is, by and large, not paying sufficient attention to detail. Some pundit made the observation that "the logo on the headstock is the most expensive part on a Gibson, these days".
I vaguely recall a textbook definition of Economics. It stated, "Economics is the study of unlimited wants versus scarce resources and the allocation of those resources". We all have "discretionary purchasing power" and it falls on each of us to "effectively allocate" our own "scarce resources". I am a strong believer in using the "Price/Performance Ratio" (bang for the buck) in making an informed, intelligent purchase decision, based on available data and experiential knowledge.
Based upon available data and experiential knowledge, I would not choose a new Gibson.
P.S. I had mentioned in another thread that I had taken my new Heritage H-575 Custom in to my guitar tech for the initial setup. When I picked up the guitar, he said, "this is a well made guitar!". That's the kind of build quality, craftsmanship and attention to detail that I want from an instrument provider. And cheaper than its Gibson counterpart as well.Last edited by jazz.fred; 11-11-2015 at 09:27 AM.
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i have never pursued one of Gibson's more affordable models. i have great guitars from them, and have always purchased them from a top dealer.
still, i understand the issues with the cheaper models that some people may be experiencing, but if you suggest Benedetto or Collings, many of those same people will whine that they're not cheap enough.
i think that the Benedetto GA-35 and Benny (when customized a little bit) look like great guitars.
GA-35? | Benedetto Guitars
Benny? | Benedetto Guitars
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The build quality of the boutique, luthier guitars is outstanding. I'm not sure they really sound "better" than a gibson though. Of course this is subjective but when I think of great guitar sounds, I think of Howard Roberts, Barney Kessel, Joe Pass (Joy Spring), Pat Martino (Lean Years, Strings), Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell.
All of these guys played Gibsons for the majority of their career. Those are the tones I like. I have heard some great tones from Holst, Benedetto, and other brands but none of them move *ME* (I'm saying *ME*) as much as the Gibsons do. Again, I agree that modern gibsons don't have the same quality and attention to detail as the boutique luthier guitars or even peerless/eastman but in terms of tone, gibsons *STILL* have the classic tone when you get a good one.
Some people expect to buy a guitar sight unseen and have it be a great guitar. Back in the '70s, I used to go up to washington music in wheaton MD and try 5 or 6 of a given guitar before I found one that sounded best. People don't want to go through that anymore. Their expectation is that every guitar will be made the same and sound the same. Even if attention to detail is great, the guitars are still made of an organic material and no two pieces will sound the same or have the same stability.
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They are now turning out a "True Historic" Les Paul for £7999
8 grand for a solid body electric. I checked the calendar in case I'd fallen asleep, missed Christmas and woke up on April the 1st
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I read an interview with a well-know modern luthier, and he said the most exciting part about guitar building is the first time you string up new instrument and strum it, because you never know exactly what it's going to sound like until you do that. Originally Posted by jzucker
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I can't believe anyone , even a Les Paul fanatic, would pay for one of those. Here in the US , that's approx., $12,000. Originally Posted by Chimera1to1
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Clearly gibson has jumped the shark. However, as much as their quality varies and as much as they have lost their way, I'd still rather play a new gibson than a peerless, eastman or ibanez. Originally Posted by gtrplrfla
I have a '01 Heritage Eagle, '96 Gibson L5, '63 Kessel, '65 Kessel, '89 175. There is nothing made by peerless, eastman or ibanez that sounds even remotely close or produces tones of the same quality as the gibsons or the heritage although I will say that the GB10 and GB200 produce beautiful tones and are at least in the same ballpark as the classic gibson tones albeit with more brightness and articulation as evident by George Benson (and others).
It's subjective so I can't sit here and tell you that they are absolutely better. Beauty is in the eye or ear of the beholder but I will say that the tones of my Gibson and heritage are absolutely classic and sound like the classic jazz guitar tones of the '50s, '60s and '70s.
For modern tones, the history has yet to be written so maybe peerless and eastman will set the tone bar for what we consider to be the classic tones of the new millennium...But I don't think so because peerless and eastman seem to be going for classic tones but at a cheaper price point. They are not trying to move the art forward by using revolutionary new designs like for example, the Sadowsky Semihollow, PRS Archtop, etc.
Just my opinion of course...
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I love these kind of threads, reminds me of being in first grade. Whats your favorite color? Youll find cats that will like each brand and dislike the others and vice versa. I agree with JZ, its all about tone regardless of make. I like red myself!
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I know what you mean Jack, Originally Posted by jzucker
and Woody you are right too, there is a respected UK luthier turning out L5 copies sub 3K but the problem is that you pay upfront and although the guitar may be very well made until it is strung up and played you don't know if it is a stunner or merely an acceptable guitar. Mass produced guitars allow you to try without commitment until you find a keeper. The Gibson legend is built on crap, uninspiring and rare happy accidents. But when you buy a Gibson you pay top dollar and rightly expect a top guitar. Gibson doesn't know how to consistently produce Gibson gems but nor does anyone else. The sticking point is the rigid price structure for new guitars. The used market prices reflect the quality of the guitar. The new prices don't.
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If you go to The Music Zoo and pick up some Custom Shop Gibsons to examine and play, you will still be pretty knocked out by the quality of what you see and hear. It's the "regular" stuff that it is a little dodgy. Actually, it has kind of been that way for about 45 years, IMO. That is, the Byrdlands, L-5CESs, Super-400s, etc., were always pretty inspiring guitars--even in the Norlin years--while the ES-335s, Les Pauls, SGs, etc., were a bit hit or miss. This changed, it seems to me in the 1990s when the entire line seemed to pep up. I must confess that flamey ES-175 guitars weren't aesthetically my cup of tea, but gawd-a-mighty they sounded good. Now, it would seem that Gibson can be accused of cutting some "Norlin-like" corners. Hmm? At the margin that I am interested in--i.e., the Custom Shop line--I don't think that is applicable. So long as they don't tank the company by continuing to screw up the whipper-snapper's Les Paul, I will be okay.
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Agreed. I just bought a 2015 Memphis ES 175 '59 Reissue VOS that is absolutely flawless and sounds incredible. I suspect that the quality issues have to do with Gibson USA or other lower priced Gibson models. That's not acceptable, to be sure. but, if you can find and afford a custom shop or VOS guitar you will not be disappointed. Originally Posted by Greentone
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I'd have to disagree on at least one sample I own. My CS ES-330 was a nightmare when I got it. The neck pup had spacer rings under it making the action VERY, VERY high. I had to remove the spacer and put an epiphone P90 cover on it to get it playable. Originally Posted by Greentone
Gibson should be ashamed it went out like that!
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Hmm? Didn't all of the '59-'63 ES-330TD guitars have a spacer ring under the bridge pickup? The ones I have seen did. ES-335 guitars used humbuckers with mounting rings. The mounting rings under the bridge pickup is always thicker--to position the pickup higher off of the body--than the neck pickup mounting ring. P90s don't use mounting rings, so a spacer was used to achieve the same effect.
I'm not suggesting that your 330 wasn't a nightmare for you, but simply that the spacer was vintage-appropriate.
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Yeah maybe so, but form over function is an idiotic cause to pursue... that is IMO. Originally Posted by Greentone
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Originally Posted by Greentone
"Vintage appropriate" is both a boon and bane for Gibson ..... their hardcore fans want it just like it was from 1930 to 1969 .. or whenever .... the closer the better
But if they do that .... you get finishes based on 1930s or 1950s chemistry .... not the shiny and durable finishes that PRS and other more modern makers are free to experiment with
You get vintage appropriate stains that look great but bleed into the binding
You get construction techniques based on 1930s or 1950s technology
And you have to do that with what's available and legal in 2015
Where vintage Gibson lovers see a reasonable and sometimes accurate attempt to recreate a 1950s masterpiece ... others see bad QC
If Gibson tries to do something more modern it's vintage fans get grumpy and the folks that want something different still see an old company trying to live off the past
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- You can't compare vintage guitars to new guitars when talking about tone. Too many variables most of which favor the vintage guitar.
- Threads questioning Martin or Taylor quality are rare to non-existant. Not sure I've even seen anyone lamenting current Fender quality though that type of guitar is a shoe in with CNC. It is quite possible to build guitars on the scale Gibson does and maintain an unquestioned reputation for quality. And yet, we see these threads all the time. Martins are expensive too so I don't think it's sour grapes from the have not's.
- Doesn't matter really. I could afford new Gibson's prices if I had to but I try to exercise responsible stewardship over resources (i.e. I hate feeling like an idiot). I would hit the used market like everyone else. Maybe a nice older L7.
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I'm no Gibson fan-boy, but let's be fair. I didn't see any comments above that mentioned Gibson's excellent warranty service.
IF you purchase a new guitar from either Gibson's USA or Custom Shop, and you find a defect, they take care of it. I had two brand new guitars (USA LP Supreme and CS Johnny A. Signature) that Gibson replaced with a brand new instrument due to minor flaws that didn't manifest themselves until a couple of years after purchase.
The Supreme's white binding turned dark due to bleeding from the case lining, and the JA had a tilting t.o.m. bridge, most likely the result of soft maple top or improper installation of the bridge posts.
I notified Gibson via email and they asked me to ship the guitars to them after sending me a pre-paid mailer. I did not request a replacement guitar in either case. I thought that they would repair them. To my surprise, a new (and superior) guitar was sent to me within a few weeks! They simply wanted me to be a happy customer.
Yes, Gibson does screw up some instruments, just like any other guitar maker, or mass producer of any product. But what makes me return and continue to do business with Gibson or whomever, is how they handle after purchase issues.
I had a similar situation with a new Heritage guitar. In that case, they took care of a minor flaw via repairs at the factory and shipped it back in short order.
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I love Martins. But every new Martin I've tried or owned has needed lowering of the saddle and nut. A setup is basically required after spending your multiple thousands of dollars. Luckily I can do these things, but many owners can't. Originally Posted by Spook410
I think this is just accepted as de rigeur in the Martin community; perhaps it's even considered a rite of passage for the new Martin owner. It's excused as "they don't set up the guitar for you because everyone's setup requirements are unique."
Taylor, of which I'm much less of a fan, does not have this issue generally.
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