Guitar Intonation

[Munk]

When I tune so both 12. th fret and loose strings are fine, then first frets on all strings up to aprox 5/6 fret are about 3-4 hz sharp. I'm living far away from techs, but do you think it would help to straighten the neck? Or do something about the nut hight, and which direction?

[oldane]

Nut slots are too high, meaning the strings get stretched at the lower frets.

[Munk]

Thanks. I don't have a nut file, so I consider to file very little in the buttom. Maybe with sandpaper on the table in order to make it equal. They seem to be standard and less costly, so there is hope if I fail.

[oldane]

Thanks. I don't have a nut file, so I consider to file very little in the buttom. Maybe with sandpaper on the table in order to make it equal. They seem to be standard and less costly, so there is hope if I fail.

Be sure to go slow, in small increments and very careful. It's easy to overdo it and then you'll have a string that buzzes - both the open string and maybe also the length of string behind the fretted note. Also be sure to have the nut slot slope a bit backwards so the string break point is at the front of the nut. If it is further back in the nut slot, it can cause buzzes and intonation problems like the ones you already have. Also take care not to widen the slot (I figure that can easily happen with sand paper).

[Munk]

I will measure more precise before. If it's equal sharp on all strings, which I hope, I will not file the slots, but only the buttom of the nut. If I overdo I could maybe put something under to raise it a little bit. I see there are diffent sizes in nut files and if several are needed, it's not a cheap do it yourself job.

[Marty Grass]

Nut slots are too high, meaning the strings get stretched at the lower frets.

I never would have come up with that, but it does make sense. I would have detected shallow nut slots long before checking intonation by the gap over the first fret.

When filing the slots, make them V shaped with the point of the V closest to the first fret. The slot should flair out toward the tuners.

[AlainJazz]

Munk, what is the relief like? A tweak of the truss rod might at least help if the neck is very bowed.

[boatheelmusic]

Try pressing the string down at the body end of the third fret, and check the height above the first. Could just touch.

[Munk]

Munk, what is the relief like? A tweak of the truss rod might at least help if the neck is very bowed.

I do have more relief than what I have seen, when I have got new guitars from factory. And also more than the times I have had a guitar tech to do the setup. It's difficult for my ears to accept just even a little buzz anywhere, and the extra relief has helped a lot. I measure relief by pressing first and 16. th fret down and put a feeler gauge under in 9. th fret. From factory it was 0.1 mm. Now it is 0.25 mm. Is this a lot?

I think you are right. If 'sharpness' up to 5/7 th fret is because of high slots, it could have the same effect to tighten the truss rod. Maybe I can solve zero buzz by raising the strings instead.

Filing the nut sounds like a lot of work for the beginner and my English vocabolary is not the best for specialized task. On the other side, it would be great to achieve the skills.

[Munk]

Try pressing the string down at the body end of the third fret, and check the height above the first. Could just touch.

Not sure if I understand. But when I press third fret it does not touch in the first fret.

[oldane]

I never would have come up with that, but it does make sense.

Out former forum member and luthier PTChris had a mantra: "Get those nut slots down!". Too high nut slots are very common, sometimes even with instruments set up by well known luthiers. It causes intonation problems and greater than necessary fretting resistance in the lower positions.

Filing the nut slots should be done after the relief is set as desired. What is desired may vary. Some may want more relief than others. Also more relief if often preferred if the action is high (to accomodate the greater string amplitude with more vigorous strumming - which is the usual reason for setting the action high). A perfectly flat fingerboard is IMHO not desirable. Especially not when the nut slot height is set properly low. At least a tiny amount of relief is useful to prevent buzzes from the strings behind the fretted notes. But I know that some will beg to differ.

[oldane]

Not sure if I understand. But when I press third fret it does not touch in the first fret.

One use to say that when fretting at the 4th fret, the height of the string over the first fret should be so that a piece of paper placed between the string and the first fret can just about be pulled out. If the string touches the first fret or the paper is stuck, the nut is too low or the fretboard has a backbow (negative relief) - or both. That is provided the height of the frets are even.

Check out these books:

http://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Elec...s=dan+erlewine

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Player-...s=dan+erlewine

[Greentone]

Get that guitar Plek'd! I used to think that stuff was happy horse@#*t, but having a Plek'd guitar I now see how much more inherently in tune an instrument can play--all over the neck--if it has been through the Plek machine and given to the tech to work over after he gets the Plek data.

[Marty Grass]

Get that guitar Plek'd! I used to think that stuff was happy horse@#*t, but having a Plek'd guitar I now see how much more inherently in tune an instrument can play--all over the neck--if it has been through the Plek machine and given to the tech to work over after he gets the Plek data.

I have a couple of G&Ls that have been Plek'd. The action is superb.

I've had some others (Heritages, Gibsons) with less impressive results.

So what's the difference?? The most obvious one to this fool is that I use 10s and 11s on the G&Ls. The guitars were Plek'd with 10s at the factory.

With archtops I tend to use heavy strings, 13s-15s. The Gibsons and Heritages were Plek'd with lighter strings.

If I were to have a guitar Plek'd now, I'd figure out the strings first.

[Munk]

One use to say that when fretting at the 4th fret, the height of the string over the first fret should be so that a piece of paper placed between the string and the first fret can just about be pulled out.

When doing the test on 1 st string, I can have several papers before meeting resistance.

I will reserve some hours to investigate. If tightening the truss rod does not help, I will buy a nut file set at Thomann and a one or two nuts to experiment. Small details will probably effect other parts of the setup.


Btw... the guitar is just few months old, so hopefully not necessary to level frets etc.

[jazzbow]

Munk, how do.

As far as reducing string slots there's only one safe way using a feeler gauge

I recently bought a new Epi Emp Reg and had to do lots of tweaking to get it playing right.

Check the link and search out the new nut section (I put on a new nut for a better look, but the string slotting is the same).

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...weaks-ngd.html

If you go too low you can pack in bone dust or baking powder, drop on some super glue and re-file the slots.

Some modern nut materials don't like the super glue and dust trick so what you do is remove the nut and shim it with wood veneer


This LP nut didn't take to the super glue trick so I shimmed with rosewood veneer, can you see?

Setting intonation can be problematic to say the least. Badly made strings are a factor.
A guitar is an imperfect instrument as far as fret placement and tuning quirks!

I worked with a blind piano tuner and he would tune in thirds and fifths and count the beats over a set time. That messes with my head!

I use the 19th fret harmonic on the B and A strings as well as the 12th fret harmonic. You would need a low string action and light touch to get that working for you.

Tuning a guitar in fifths and octaves works really well and using 5th chords up and down the fingerboard to tweak the strings slightly.

I hope this helps

[Greentone]

MG,

I think you are correct--settle on strings first, then have the guitar Plek'd. If you have an archtop Plek'd with light-gauge strings, then switch to mediums (that we all tend to use), the results aren't going to be accurate.

These days, factories send _all_ guitars out with skinny strings, IMO. I personally like Fenders and Les Pauls with .11 gauge sets. That's what I would have them Plek'd for, knowing that I am not going to be flipping the guitars. The archtops? I'd be using .12 or .13 gauge strings, after I played and listened to them for a spell.

[Munk]

As far as reducing string slots there's only one safe way using a feeler gauge

Wow, it looks very pro Jazzbow. I have to study with a dicitionary. Do you write somewhere about specific guideline (in mm or inch) from buttom of string to top of fret or so?

[Munk]

It didn't help a lot reducing relief, and it's not easy without a good tuner, and when the cellphone changes mind all the time.

The Peterson stroboclip is mayby very precise but seem also difficult to read, and I'm not sure if Snark are good for down to 1 percent precision. So I lurk at Boss TU-3, but if anyone have experience with a cheaper and as good from Thomann, I would be glad to hear:

Tuners - Thomann UK

[AlainJazz]

I do have more relief than what I have seen, when I have got new guitars from factory. And also more than the times I have had a guitar tech to do the setup. It's difficult for my ears to accept just even a little buzz anywhere, and the extra relief has helped a lot. I measure relief by pressing first and 16. th fret down and put a feeler gauge under in 9. th fret. From factory it was 0.1 mm. Now it is 0.25 mm. Is this a lot?

I think you are right. If 'sharpness' up to 5/7 th fret is because of high slots, it could have the same effect to tighten the truss rod. Maybe I can solve zero buzz by raising the strings instead.

Filing the nut sounds like a lot of work for the beginner and my English vocabolary is not the best for specialized task. On the other side, it would be great to achieve the skills.

Giving the truss rod a quarter turn or so is an easy thing to try. If it doesn't help, you can always turn it back.

[Munk]

Giving the truss rod a quarter turn or so is an easy thing to try. If it doesn't help, you can always turn it back.

Yes. I tried yesterday, but it didn't help. I think part of the problem is that I have thicker strings than after the factory setup.

[jazzbow]

Wow, it looks very pro Jazzbow. I have to study with a dicitionary. Do you write somewhere about specific guideline (in mm or inch) from buttom of string to top of fret or so?

There are different measurements due to individual players techniques and preferences.
The average would be 0.4mm for 6th string and 0.2mm for the 1st string. The remaining strings would reduce in pair sets sooo.....

Using a metric feeler gauge...

E & A = 0.4mm gap measured at the 1st fret
D & G = 0.3mm gap measured at the 1st fret
B & E = 0.2mm gap measured at the 1st fret

Check this out

Go to 20.00 minutes for using strings to measure nut string action

So in the end you could say...

justering sträng åtgärd är irriterande

[Munk]

E & A = 0.4mm gap measured at the 1st fret
D & G = 0.3mm gap measured at the 1st fret
B & E = 0.2mm gap measured at the 1st fret

I guess theese meaures at 1 st fret are when pressing down in 3 or 4. th fret - as the gap now is about 0.8 mm

Meanwhile I have also seen another video, where the method was to place the feeler gauge in the first fret close to the nut while filing. I think I will try this, though problably not a 100 percent waterproof way to measure, as the the angle of the cut shall be deeper on the other side of the nut.

I will order the tools for the experiment and if anything goes wrong I can from the guitar serial number buy exactly the same nut that I have now. And yes, it will problably be "lidt irriterende", but also a joy to be able to do more of "the basic" things. To change pickups is another thing it would be very nice to learn one day.

[jazzbow]

Meanwhile I have also seen another video, where the method was to place the feeler gauge in the first fret close to the nut while filing. I think I will try this, though problably not a 100 percent waterproof way to measure, as the the angle of the cut shall be deeper on the other side of the nut.

Munk, go to the link I gave you earlier on the Epiphone Emperor Regent improvements I did. Go to the section on cutting the string grooves on the new nut, the feeler gauge technique is there. Copy and paste the words onto Google translate into Swedish like I did here. This might help.


Munk , gå till länken jag gav dig tidigare på Epiphone Emperor Regent förbättringar som jag gjorde . Gå till avsnittet om att skära strängen spår på den nya 'guitar nut', bladmåttet tekniken är där. Kopiera och klistra in ord på Google översätta till svenska som jag gjorde här . Detta kan hjälpa .

Hey, Jazzbow can help in other languages now! Woo hoo me!!

[jazzbow]

Titta igen på den här videon

Gå till 20.00 minuter . Denne man använder gitarrsträngar för att mäta luckorna på första fret.

I ditt ansikte tornet Babel....