Gibson ES-165 Versus ES-175

[Wildcat]

I came across a 2001 Gibson ES-165 new old stock (NOS) guitar. Other than the single pickup, however does it compare to the ES-175 construction and tone? I understand perhaps the intent was to model it along the lines of Herb Ellis's 175. The price is $2300, which when compared to the ES-175 seems low. Also, the pickup is a 490R?

I forgot to mention no tax or shipping costs. So with no tax, I save $160, making the price about $2140, with free lay-away for up to 6 months.

[vinnyv1k]

Buy it. They are great guitars. Basically a single pu 175. The 490 is a tad hotter than a 57 classic. The humbucker 165 is a great jazz guitar IMO.

[Max405]

Hi the construction and tone are equal to me. The only difference I saw is they went a little cheap on the headstock inlay on the 165 and made it a gold decal. I owned a 175 and a 165 at the same time for a while and to me they were very close. I loved the 175 and the only reason I sold it over the 165 was because I was able to sell the 175 for a higher price. The 165's are a GREAT value. To me, they are 175's. And the 2 pickup 175's should be 175D's..

New old stock for a 2001 guitar? Is that possible?

Joe D

[redwater]

You will never regret the investment for a 165!
The 490R is a nice Pickup, very warm sounding.
I have a 165 since 3 years and often I considered to change the Pickup. But everytime I pick it up, I know I should let it as it is.

[boatheelmusic]

Buy it and be happy.

That's low for a used 175.

[SamBooka]

I dont think that is low for a used ES165.
Neck and body are the same as the 175. Cheaper tailpiece and no crown inlay on the headstock.
I actually dont know what the pickups in a 2001 175 are.

In my minds eye these are 1800$ guitars

That said.. I overpaid for mine too .. 1900 plus a tank of gas .. but it IS a good guitar.
If it is new new new the price might be justified.
I am curious what the 490R sounds like compared to the Classic Plus I have in mine..

[neatomic]

there's about 1/2 dozen on reverb.com right now..ranging from 1900 to 2100$$$...so yours is within reason

the pickup till 2004 should be 490r

i'd be tempted to stick a humbucker sized cc or p90 in there!

cheers

[Geechnyc]

...

I am curious what the 490R sounds like compared to the Classic Plus I have in mine..

Here's my 1996 ES-165 with the 490R (not sure what amp I was given to use):

[stoneground]

A 2001 ES165 should have a 490r humbucker and the pre 2004 neck profile. To my mind the only drawbacks of this excellent guitar are the cheap tailpiece which is prone to breakage and the 490r pickup which doesn't sound much like a typical ES175. That is of course a matter of personal taste. On my 1995 model I have changed the 490r for a classic 57 and replaced the tailpiece with correct zig zag item in nickel. I'm now just waiting for the rest of the gold plate to wear off to match it! The absence of an inlaid headstock logo also seemed an unnecessary cost saving but if you can live with that an early 165 is much cheaper than a single pickup 175 and probably sounds just as good.

You might also be interested to look at the earlier thread I started "ES165 versus ES175 VOS". There were a lot of illuminating comments in that discussion which made me happy to stick with my ES165.

[SamBooka]

there's about 1/2 dozen on reverb.com right now..ranging from 1900 to 2100$$$...so yours is within reason

the pickup till 2004 should be 490r

i'd be tempted to stick a humbucker sized cc or p90 in there!

cheers

Personal opinion and of course not based on fact or first hand experience but I always find Reverb prices a little on the optimistic side (but then again so is kijiji .. ) . Question: can you haggle with sellers on Reverb? Ebay has the "best offer" option but I have never bought from reverb.

EDIT: ok.. comparing apples and apples. Every new roadworn strat that is the same as mine is 200$ more expensive (used) or 350$ more expensive (new) than what I paid for mine in Feb (new) and I counted at least 5 of them so not a one off.

[Jabberwocky]

In about 2011/2012, I found the rarer ES-165 PLUS (with twin pups) in Light Burst with the original green plush lined, green satin shroud faux black gator hard shell case at Wilcutt Guitars online. Asking? $2350. It was in "mint" condition.

I don't know if something changed but isn't the faux black gator hard case part of the ES-165? If not, can it be considered NOS? You can't play a case so why does it matter? It matters when it comes to pricing it as you'd find out when you try to flip a guitar one day. It is just the way the market works.

I feel that for the asking of $2300, Wildcat can do a lot better. NOS or not, used is used. I have been following the prices of the ES-165 with the inset single neck pup since 2009. The market trends between $1400 and $1800, depending on finish and condition, with the Light Burst or Antique Sunburst ones at the top of the range.

I have the grand total experience of ONE ES-165 that I found hanging at a used dealer. It was POA so I didn't ask the surly guy. Or maybe that was because I dress like a hobo and look like one with straggly long hair. Urban survival tip; nobody marks a hobo.

These are things to watch out for in an ES-165: The neck profile is chunky. Certainly, a full Size Cup D. It felt chunkier than the 2006 ES-175 I have. The zigzag "pot-metal" tailpiece is a known issue. It breaks at the hinge. This is not the same zigzag tailpiece that Gibson purportedly makes in-house for the ES-175 1959 VOS Reissue. The Grover tuning machines are heavy. If you do not like the 490R, that is another issue. So, when you think about it, by the time you replace the pup, the tuning machines and the tailpiece, you may as well buy a good used ES-175 Memphis.

You can find a good used ES-175 Memphis ASB for between $2000 and $2250. And that one holds its value a lot better. msr13, who used to post here, sold his 2009 ES-175 ASB for $2250. But a "NOS" ES-165 for $2300. Turn around and try to flip it? You'd hard pressed to find a buyer for $1600. $1700 tops. And he's going to ask, "Where is the black faux gator case? No case, ARRRRR, $1500!" I jest in part but the used guitar market is a harsh mistress.

The last time I checked, a 2006 ES-175 SP Natural Slab-cut Maple (with the single neck humbucker and a zigzag tailpiece) sold for $2300 on ebay. Unplayed condition. That was in 2013. Prices have not moved much, if at all, from 2013.

That says nothing at all about the playability and tone of the 2001 ES-165 that you are considering. If you bond with it, everything that I have written is moot. It is just a few hundreds difference, after all.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Good hunting.

P.S. I'd pay $1800 for that 2001 ES-165 but that's because the seller is a retired teacher and I have a soft spot for teachers.

[SamBooka]

I'mwith Jabberwocky on all points except for one. It looks like a brown case and that is what came with my original 165. Mine is identical to that but a little pinker inside but it's been a while since I've actually used the case. Made by Levys if I recall correctly it has in big letters "Gibson USA"

[Max405]

So, exactly what do have to do to a zigzag tailpiece to make it break? I've owned 2 guitars with zigzag tp's for a total of 30 years (16 and 14) and my tailpieces have not broken. I take care of my stuff, so maybe that's why?
As far as the chunky neck, mine is a 1999 and its neck is not chunky. In fact, it's typical Gibson perfect.
I agree that $2300 is exorbitant. But I would not value them as low as $1400. If you can find one at $1400, either it's trashed or you are taking advantage of a desperate buyer. I hate that.
i would offer the seller $1900. If the seller agrees, you walk away with fair deal on a guitar that you will cherish for many years to come.
Joe D

[Jabberwocky]

Joe, not zigzag tailpieces in general but the zigzag tailpieces that Gibson sourced for the ES-165.

As for the $1400 price point, that was an open ebay transaction. Nobody took advantage of anybody. Lark Street Music sold a refinished (beautifully re-lacquered to an amber tone) ES-165 in 2014. Asking? $1500.

[Max405]

Joe, not zigzag tailpieces in general but the zigzag tailpieces that Gibson sourced for the ES-165.

I currently have one on my 165 that is 16 years old and it is perfect in every way. The plating looks brand new and the hinge looks very sturdy.

[jzucker]

on jeremy's 165 the tailpiece slots were cut too large and daddario chromes would slip through the slots so we had to run a thick wire through the ball ends on the strings to keep this from happening. The slots were unmodified so this is how the tailpiece was cut from the factory.

Seemed like an odd bit of quality control gone wrong.

[Wildcat]

In about 2011/2012, I found the rarer ES-165 PLUS (with twin pups) in Light Burst with the original green plush lined, green satin shroud faux black gator hard shell case at Wilcutt Guitars online. Asking? $2350. It was in "mint" condition.

I don't know if something changed but isn't the faux black gator hard case part of the ES-165? If not, can it be considered NOS? You can't play a case so why does it matter? It matters when it comes to pricing it as you'd find out when you try to flip a guitar one day. It is just the way the market works.

I feel that for the asking of $2300, Wildcat can do a lot better. NOS or not, used is used. I have been following the prices of the ES-165 with the inset single neck pup since 2009. The market trends between $1400 and $1800, depending on finish and condition, with the Light Burst or Antique Sunburst ones at the top of the range.

I have the grand total experience of ONE ES-165 that I found hanging at a used dealer. It was POA so I didn't ask the surly guy. Or maybe that was because I dress like a hobo and look like one with straggly long hair. Urban survival tip; nobody marks a hobo.

These are things to watch out for in an ES-165: The neck profile is chunky. Certainly, a full Size Cup D. It felt chunkier than the 2006 ES-175 I have. The zigzag "pot-metal" tailpiece is a known issue. It breaks at the hinge. This is not the same zigzag tailpiece that Gibson purportedly makes in-house for the ES-175 1959 VOS Reissue. The Grover tuning machines are heavy. If you do not like the 490R, that is another issue. So, when you think about it, by the time you replace the pup, the tuning machines and the tailpiece, you may as well buy a good used ES-175 Memphis.

You can find a good used ES-175 Memphis ASB for between $2000 and $2250. And that one holds its value a lot better. msr13, who used to post here, sold his 2009 ES-175 ASB for $2250. But a "NOS" ES-165 for $2300. Turn around and try to flip it? You'd hard pressed to find a buyer for $1600. $1700 tops. And he's going to ask, "Where is the black faux gator case? No case, ARRRRR, $1500!" I jest in part but the used guitar market is a harsh mistress.

The last time I checked, a 2006 ES-175 SP Natural Slab-cut Maple (with the single neck humbucker and a zigzag tailpiece) sold for $2300 on ebay. Unplayed condition. That was in 2013. Prices have not moved much, if at all, from 2013.

That says nothing at all about the playability and tone of the 2001 ES-165 that you are considering. If you bond with it, everything that I have written is moot. It is just a few hundreds difference, after all.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Good hunting.

P.S. I'd pay $1800 for that 2001 ES-165 but that's because the seller is a retired teacher and I have a soft spot for teachers.

Jabberwocky,

Excellent analysis. Just what I was looking for. By far I do prefer the chunky neck over the slim 60's style. The neck single pickup is all I really use anyway.

The issue of course is cash flow. The seller offers 3-6 months to pay it off. 20% down No interest. Right now and until next year this works for me. The seller in notorious for being firm on his price.

I have a Soloway guitar as my only guitar. The ES-165 seems to be a nice complement to that guitar and as a second guitar.

[Herbie]

Some say that guitars NEED to be played to sound right. Even the solid bodied Les Pauls are said to get opened when played. And sounding stiff or 'not open' if not played.

If this is correct it should mean that much played hollowbody guitar is better than 20+ years old unplayed.

And anyway Your playing does not drop the price as much as with a new guitar!

In Reverb You can offer the price. I have done several purchases by offering ~10-15% lower than asked. Not guitars though, pedals and pickups. I have liked interactions thru Reverb.

Good luck with ES-165-hunt! I'll get one too when I'll get some financing...but cherry red! They are astonishing! (And my wife likes red!)

[Jabberwocky]

You're welcomed, Wildcat. I ruffled a few feathers.

At $2140 with no state sales tax you are basically paying 10% interest on it over 6 months layaway. Taking its NOS condition at face value that is not a bad price. However, I'd advise you to check it out in person and plug it in, give it a good old strum before committing. Any chance of stringing it up with a fresh set of strings of your usual gauge, and giving it a proper set up?

[SamBooka]

two birds/one stone post.

Ok.. so about that tailpiece.
My 96 has had 3 owners. I am literally the little old man who only plays it on sundays (albeit a little old man with a soldering iron
Previous owner gigged it occasionally but other than some oxidation and a dry fingerboard the guitar was in VG shape.
The guy before that I dont know..

When my tailpiece blew up (opened the case one day to find the guitar way out of tune.. took a minute to figure out what was wrong) I called Gibson for a replacement. Even though they still made ES165s at the time they do not sell replacement tailpieces and suggested that I get a replacement from AllParts or StewMac since that is what Gibson is using on those guitars (i.e. offshore parts). I have seen Gibson branded TPs before.. this has none of that.

A little pissed.. I called Yorkeville Canada (Canadian reps for Gibson, maybe they could hook me up with something from a service center). Super nice but they said the same thing (just less diplomatically) that the replacement for that guitar IS an offshore part. If I am going to buy cheap hardware I went with the parallelogram for 30$ on ebay. Screw holes dont match up for the end pin but I dont use a strap so I took it off and left it in the case.

As for the case, it is TKL (not Levy's as I thought).







Busted hinge on the TP.. I pried the other tooth open to get the rest of the TP for a jerryrig replacement plate.

[vinlander]

That TKL case might even have been made by Etuis Boblen in Montréal on Rue Frontenac, they make cases for TKL and Gibson

[SamBooka]

SHHHHHH!!!! It was one of the cases where we think the glue caused the binding to turn pink (the binding on the lower bout of the guitar is pink)

[Sunburst 165]

Hello, new to the forum. I joined because after doing as much research as possible including on this forum, I did buy a '91 Herb Ellis. During my searches including watching every YouTube video I could find, I didn't realize that this clip of Herb Ellis shows him playing a Gibson Herb Ellis model and not his older single pickup ES-175. Funny thing is that I didn't catch it until a couple days ago and after watching the video numerous times. If you go full screen on the video and stop it when the headstock is in full camera view you'll see the Herb Ellis decal? in plain view. Also, the gold finish on the pickup is wearing off so it's evident that he spent a lot of time on this guitar. Edit: Looks like you have go to the YouTube site to view it full screen.
Anyway, I'm more than happy with mine. It looks like it spent most of its life in the case. I was planning on making a couple changes to the guitar before I received it but once I played it for a few days I decided to leave it just the way it is.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Those are some fantastic shots of his picking.

[Beanctr]

So Herb did actually play his namesake ES-165! R