Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175

**Greentone** · 10-25-2015, 07:22 PM

I know it's been said before, but the tone that Joe Pass gets on the Jazz Baltica concert video from 1992 is his best ever. Unaccompanied for the first half of the show and playing with Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen in the second half, Pass sounds sublime on his custom-made, shallow-body Gibson ES-175 (with the pickup specially located just off the end of the fingerboard). Pay no attention to the photo below--it's just a placeholder for the video it accompanies. Pass doesn't use the D'Aquisto for the '92 concert--he uses the Gibson.

Pass plays the guitar through what appears to be a late-80s Polytone Teeny Brute amp that delivers about 60-75 watts into a 4-ohm 8" speaker. The response of the speaker is perfect for the archtop guitar that Pass is playing at this concert. The overall effect is that Pass sounds _much_ better (IMO) than he has on previous recordings or concerts.

I wish that Joe Pass had employed this rig during more of his career than just at the end.

**Max405** · 10-25-2015, 07:34 PM

I can't disagree Greentone.
The tone is dynamite. I'm not sure what he used but the tone he achieved on the intercontinental album was pretty spectacular too.
its a shame that he couldn't get a more universally pleasing sound out of the JP20. I still think that is a spectacular guitar. It's a shame that it is sounds like he used Ernie ball super slinky 8's on it most of the time. I think that and the Music man amp was a bad combination.
Joe D

**Greentone** · 10-25-2015, 07:41 PM

JD,

Intercontinental sounds great, too. I don't know the setup.

We both know that the JP-20 is a superb guitar--both in terms of playability AND sound. Pass didn't always get the sound out of it that he should have; nor did he get all that he should have from his D'Aquisto, IMO.

OTOH, he sure did PLAY the heck out of all of those instruments. He was the master!

**Max405** · 10-25-2015, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

JD,

Intercontinental sounds great, too. I don't know the setup.

We both know that the JP-20 is a superb guitar--both in terms of playability AND sound. Pass didn't always get the sound out of it that he should have; nor did he get all that he should have from his D'Aquisto, IMO.

OTOH, he sure did PLAY the heck out of all of those instruments. He was the master!

You got it brother! He sure did.

**sgcim** · 10-25-2015, 07:51 PM

He had a weird relationship with his JP-20. Roger Borys told me used to see JP play the thing with the wires hanging out of the input jack, and the sound would be distorted because the wires wouldn't be making the proper connection.
JP didn't give a schlitz!

**Flat** · 10-25-2015, 07:56 PM

Are you sure that's a Polytone, Greentone?

Did Polytone ever make an amp with that kind of a slant for the knobs? I thought everything Polytone was more cube-like and boxy, like a MiniBrute. But I don't know. I've probably never seen a Teeny Brute.

That pic looks a little like a Mesa Boogie Studio 22 I used to have. But Joe running a custom guitar through a Boogie doesn't make sense to me either.

Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-polyteeny-jpg

Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-polyteeny-jpg

**neatomic** · 10-25-2015, 08:00 PM

was looking into guitar details- via great john pisano interviews- regarding joe pass guitars..i know pisano owns a few now..and also that they traded off guitars on sessions...(pisano is essential figure in post war west coast jazz guitar!)

but anyway stumbled upon this great pic..which i think is just classic

tedesco with guitar..post dinner coffees (& grappa?)...pisano, zappa & pass..wow..what a meal that must have been!

Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-a41f02d5ab4b69c7f614ed26f66d9832-jpg

Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-a41f02d5ab4b69c7f614ed26f66d9832-jpg

Dinner at Pasta Michi Restaurant in Sylmar CA - Jan. 1983

After a recording session done by Tommy Tedesco for FZ ... From left to right: Tommy Tedesco, Jack Ranelli, unknown, Charlie Chiarenza, John Pisano, Frank Zappa and Joe Pass.

cheers

**lawson-stone** · 10-25-2015, 08:53 PM

WOW. All I can say. Wow. Tedesco, Pisano, Pass and ZAPPA. Wow. Just Wow.

**lawson-stone** · 10-25-2015, 08:56 PM

Might be the Polytone Taurus IV, which had a front panel on the slant like that. The Polytone "P" logo on the front of the amp is pretty unmistakable.

**mcahoon** · 10-25-2015, 09:06 PM

Captured image from the video front view definitely shows the Polytone symbol.
Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-joe-pass-jazzbaltica_1992-jpg

Best Joe Pass Tone: his custom Gibson ES-175-joe-pass-jazzbaltica_1992-jpg

**Flat** · 10-25-2015, 09:37 PM

Aah, yes. I see now. Thanks, guys.

Definitely a great sound for Joe!

**Greentone** · 10-25-2015, 09:48 PM

The Taurus amps from that vintage all had the slant front panels. However, they had way more knobs--nine--some with coaxial shafts, too. The only Polytone amp with a slant front and a one cubic foot cabinet with three knob cluster and a reverb knob that I ever saw was a Teeny Brute that a vintage dealer was using to display his guitars through at a show in Philly about a dozen years back. I tried to buy the amp, but it wasn't for sale. The guy insisted that it was the best jazz amp ever. That's what I thought, too, as I played some of his guitars. I had never seen that version of the smallest Brute before. However, that's it...Joe Pass is using it at Jazz Baltica '92. Sounds really sweet.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-25-2015, 09:52 PM

Sounds beautiful.

There's something to be said about the ambient sound of the venue, as well.

**Cunamara** · 10-25-2015, 10:07 PM

Yep, that's on par with his best-ever tones. Wow. What I am really interested by is how similar it sounds with pick versus fingerstyle.

This is complete heresy- I didn't think either Joe nor Jim Hall sounded as good on their D'Aquistos as with their Gibsons. In general I think that the better an archtop sounds acoustically, the worse it sounds electrically. There are no doubt exceptions and probably much of that is the pickup choices that are usually employed for floaters.

**6stringjazz** · 10-26-2015, 12:41 AM

Beautiful tone and awesome playing. Thanks for posting this. Interesting that his 175 is actually closer to a Heritage 575 in design here. I wonder if Gibson ever offered this model?

**Stringswinger** · 10-26-2015, 02:23 AM

Joe Pass was arguably the greatest guitarist of all time. Herb Ellis once told me that Joe was his all time favorite. The only guitarist that is in Joe's league IMO is Wes. many of Joe's friends have told me that Wes was Joe's favorite guitarist.

I think Joe was unconcerned with amplification in the later part of his career and so his tone can suffer in some of the recordings and videos. But even with his worst tone he sounds better than any of his detractors ever will.

I think jazz guitar tone does not get any better than his Intercontinental album. That was his 62 ES-175 with 13 gauge Flats played through some kind of amp (likely an early Polytone).

If Gibson did a Joe Pass model of that last guitar he played, I would buy one. Why they have not is a bit of a mystery to me. Maybe they cannot because there are some issues in his estate?

**jorgemg1984** · 10-26-2015, 07:45 AM

I never liked Joe Pass sound until I saw a clip of this concert a few years ago. This is indeed is best sound! Had never saw the full concert, thanks for the link.

**boatheelmusic** · 10-26-2015, 07:56 AM

Do we hear small squeaks? Is he using roundwounds?

**Archie** · 10-26-2015, 08:44 AM

I've said it myself before and not to stir the pot but I think the alterations done to the original ES-175 design was the perfect specs for the Es-175.

I am happy to lose a bit of the bass response, that can sometimes be overwhelming. Making the guitar shallower I think allowed the extremes of the its sonic range to be tighter. You'll appreciate what i mean Joe D with your Jp-20. The bass and treble are very tight, very round all the way up. You dont get the hollowing out sound past the 9th fret on the bass side that I believe comes from having a body deeper than 3 inches.

Its a real shame they didn't put that model into production. I guess they just didn't want to muddy the ES-175 waters. Gibson have done all sort of variations of the L5 but very few of the ES-175. The ES-175 thin line is the only example I can think of and that was short lived in the 70's (I believe), the HE being the other example.

They dont appear to like messing around with that model too much.

**jzucker** · 10-26-2015, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Yep, that's on par with his best-ever tones. Wow. What I am really interested by is how similar it sounds with pick versus fingerstyle.

This is complete heresy- I didn't think either Joe nor Jim Hall sounded as good on their D'Aquistos as with their Gibsons. In general I think that the better an archtop sounds acoustically, the worse it sounds electrically. There are no doubt exceptions and probably much of that is the pickup choices that are usually employed for floaters.

I would modify that statement slightly. A guy on this forum once told me that the plywood guitars sound horrible acoustically, specifically the 175. My 175 and BKs sound great acoustically. Their tone is very similar to their electric tone. Most of the time when the pickups are relatively flat sounding, the electric tone and the acoustic tone are not that different.

What I believe to be true is that the guitar has to be designed with the electric tone in mind. Compromises to the acoustic integrity have to be made in order to make the electric sound better. So many of the boutique archtops are designed as acoustic instruments and then a pickup is added at the last minute. I don't think that's the best approach.

**jzucker** · 10-26-2015, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

I've said it myself before and not to stir the pot but I think the alterations done to the original ES-175 design was the perfect specs for the Es-175.

Not surprisingly, I disagree. For solo guitar, certainly the pickup placement makes more sense as it's a bit more mellow and also gives a wider range for the fingerstyle player to alter the treble content of the note without worrying about striking the pickup.

But the stock 175 is an absolutely classic guitar tone and IMO, it doesn't get much better than this.

Dutchbopper · 10-26-2015, 09:47 AM

I agree with Jack. I like the sound on "Joy Spring", "For Django", "Intercontinental" and "Simplicity" way, way better than on the OP's track. His sound in the 60s was the best ever IMHO. But I have been saying that for decades.

DB

**Greentone** · 10-26-2015, 10:14 AM

JZ and Dutchbopper make a strong case for Joe Pass' early tone. The ES-175D through whatever he was using in the studio at the time is stunning.

It is as if, early and late, Joe Pass hit a successful formula with his signal chain. More likely, he had to care on the "way up," and he deigned to care near the end, when he realized that it was legacy time. In the middle, I suspect that he was caught up in the economics of jazz in the 70s and 80s, which was woo-harsh. Whereas rock artists of limited artistic capacity were permitted unlimited studio time (their albums were destined to sell millions), jazz guys couldn't even get a re-take--roll tape and play was the order of the day. Jazz back then was sort of like being an opening rock act at a concert venue--sound check? What, you're kidding, right? Shut up and play.

AH: I, too, wish that Gibson put that last 175 into production. I suspect that had JP lived they would have done so.

**Hammertone** · 10-26-2015, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

The Taurus amps from that vintage all had the slant front panels. However, they had way more knobs--nine--some with coaxial shafts, too. The only Polytone amp with a slant front and a one cubic foot cabinet with three knob cluster and a reverb knob that I ever saw was a Teeny Brute that a vintage dealer was using to display his guitars through at a show in Philly about a dozen years back. I tried to buy the amp, but it wasn't for sale. The guy insisted that it was the best jazz amp ever. That's what I thought, too, as I played some of his guitars. I had never seen that version of the smallest Brute before. However, that's it...Joe Pass is using it at Jazz Baltica '92. Sounds really sweet.

The Taurus amps I've played were later and had slanted faces and open backs.
The various Brute amps are sealed back little things. I much prefer the Brutes.

**Max405** · 10-26-2015, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

Making the guitar shallower I think allowed the extremes of the its sonic range to be tighter. You'll appreciate what i mean Joe D with your Jp-20. The bass and treble are very tight, very round all the way up. You dont get the hollowing out sound past the 9th fret on the bass side that I believe comes from having a body deeper than 3 inches.

Its a real shame they didn't put that model into production. I guess they just didn't want to muddy the ES-175 waters. Gibson have done all sort of variations of the L5 but very few of the ES-175. The ES-175 thin line is the only example I can think of and that was short lived in the 70's (I believe), the HE being the other example.

They dont appear to like messing around with that model too much.

Archie, I am right there with you on this.
The narrower body of the JP tightens up the lower notes. It focuses them so they are deliberate and easy to control.
Another thing:
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this. But for some reason the 175 sounds/projects a lot better to the listener than to the player. I realize that is the foundation of what an archtop is, but it is augmented more on the 175. When I heard Rick Shapiro playing my 175 I was shocked with how full it sounded. Now of course a lot of that was his playing compared to mine but it sounded fuller and more detailed 6 feet in front of him than it did when I played it right under me. I have friends who have played my other guitars (Including my L5) and I have not heard the same disparity in sound on other guitars.

The 175 is a legendary Guitar for many reasons.