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Same here .....
Originally Posted by Groyniad
One of my two main guitars is a L5 which i bought brand new in 2003. It took her a while to develop the sweetness she has now. I came to love this instrument very much, no way ever to sell it as long as i'm alive!
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10-07-2015 08:52 AM
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I would say, before you sell any Wes model, try a Lollar high wind (NOT low wind) and see if it warms things up. If not, put the stock pickup back in and sell both, then look for a CES.
I never had a chance to compare them (and as I think about it, I've played several, but never a CES) AND I still want a blonde CES, but.... a hotter pickup may make all the difference. Maybe not exactly the same, but enough that I get the sound I was looking for and initially, I was struggling with disappointment. It's been a few years since I made the swap, so it's hard to remember enough to describe what I didn't like, but a spike in the high mids/lower highs sounds about right. But sustain for days, incredible neck.... the whole thing just feels connected when you play. Its all onboard, one unit, one voice.
I think I will find a great 175 before I look for a CES. Not sure I could get rid of the Sadowsky, but it definitely makes me work harder, like riding a single speed when you are used to a good 10 speed road bike. The effort has some utility and makes you play differently. But then, sometimes I think "why struggle?" Haven't answered that question yet.
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The L5 CES has the typical tone of Jazz. Deviate away from it and you will get mixed results. I don't remember any of the guys back then playing L5 Wesmo's (even Wes).
That should sum it up right there without you even having to pick the guitar up. Whether you like the deviation is of course up to you. An L5 Wes doesn't make you sound anymore like Wes than an l5CES, in fact it normally makes you sound less like Wes.
One could argue that there is almost no need for a Wes at all. You have the L5CES and the JS what more do you want? between those two models you can find all the L5 type variables you want no?
Ok so you want 1 pickup on your L5, well you're changing the basic construction for cosmetic reasons, expecting to get the same guitar.Last edited by Archie; 10-07-2015 at 11:52 AM.
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try a tom saddle from graph tech on your sadowksy - i'm going to try one on mine, after experiencing the sustain etc. on the gibson its hard to go back.
'the whole things feel connected when you play. ...one unit, one voice' - this captures something important i think - and it is a feel thing.
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
yes - but... aren't there lots of clips of wes playing an actual wes and sounding just like - wes?
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I own a Wes L5 and a 1966 L5CES (sharp cutaway, laminated back and sides). I agree with the others that the CES is deader/quieter acoustically, and when amplified the notes seem to respond quicker when playing fast single note lines. The Wes, however, is richer sounding with more acoustic archtop properties in its tone. It has a greater dynamic range, and you can pick hard and make the notes pop like you hear on the Wes Montgomery live in Europe videos where he plays the one pickup L5. Listen to Wes playing the intro to Full House on the 1965 video. My Wes L5 sounds like that, but my CES does not have that percussive "pop." The CES sounds like the Full House live album (Berkeley, CA) where Wes played a two pickup sharp cut L5CES (I saw a photo of Wes with Johnny Griffin at Tsubo which I assume is from that gig. Wes had his sunburst sharp cut CES, not the blond CES on the cover). My CES also sounds similar to Pat Martino's early recordings when he used an L5CES, if I adjust the tone control on my guitar and amp.
Regarding a pickup change, I find the Classic '57 in my Wes to be significantly hotter than my 1966 L5CES' pickup, and also hotter than the Antiquity that I have in my Benedetto Fratello CES. I am not in love with the Classic '57, but I would be hesitant to replace it with a higher output pickup. Does Lollar high wind = higher output, or just a different tone?
For me the greatest improvement I made to the Wes L5 was replacing the metal saddles in the bridge. The Wes has a deep, warm, beautiful tone but there was this metallic ringing on top that drove me nuts. I tried a wooden saddle but that made it too "acoustic archtop" sounding for me, as I want it to sound like Wes. I scrutinized every Wes photo I could find that showed his bridge, and I noticed it had nylon saddles (like my '66 CES). I bought a Tone Pros gold abr-1 with old style nylon saddles and it brought the tone closer to what I was after. I highly recommend that change if the metallic tone bothers you.
I wonder if adding sound posts would deaden the Wes L5 and make it sound more like a CES. Sort of like what a bridge pickup would do. It may also cut down on feedback, as the Wes is more resonant and prone to feedback more so than my CES. Worth a try if you own a Wes L5 but think you would prefer the CES' sound.
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This is one of those conversations where I miss Patrick's input ....
He was definately in the CES sounds better camp .. IIRC
I really would like an L5P ... but too much money ... even at the incredible price I was quoted recently
If you want an L5P I recommend you call a few of these stores that have been setting on them for months and offer them about $7K ... I bet one of them will bite
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Yeh I was just looking back at a CES thread and found myself reading Patricks comment. That was a weird moment :-( Originally Posted by Bluedawg
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Sure but for most people the change will be too much. I'm sure Wes could play anything and sound like wes if you gave him a guitar in the ball park of the one he generally played, ok not a 175 lol.
Sorry I didn't mean to say he never played a single pulp l5. I just meant that I didn't associate that guitar with him. I always associated him with an L5CES, or variations of it through tampering.
Either way I'm pleasantly surprised by your review. I found most of it at odds with my experience of the L5CES, so good to hear you are so pleased. Maybe they stepped their game up, to receive such praise from you? If I remember the parts on my L5 were probably from a Les Paul and didn't fit at all. The pickup rings were totally the wrong shape and the pickups didnt sit properly. Well documented facts that you haven't reported. Well done to Gibson for finally sorting it out which is the assumption I got from reading your review. Its been 30 odd years but better late than never :-)Last edited by Archie; 10-07-2015 at 01:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
yes - part of the point of posting was to say this -
i have quite a bit of experience with boutique archtops that are famous for their 'fit and finish' - and i can tell you - this new L5CES is as good as anything i've seen. this point applies to binding, lacquer etc and to how well set up it is. in fact - its set up and plays better than anything i've had.
when i first saw them - as i said in a post from a few weeks ago - i was not impressed by the fit and finish. and the bridge was way to low - so there was no set-up to speak of. i did not expect to like them much at all - and all that hit me was how great they sounded and felt to play. i was used to seeing an andersen and a campellone that look incredibly natural and fine (lots of pics on the sales forum) - so i failed to appreciate the look of the L5 with all its bling.
it seems to me that you can tell from pics on musicians friend or music zoo just how top-notch these things are. maybe not.Last edited by Groyniad; 10-07-2015 at 01:49 PM.
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Well, "The incredible jazz guitar..." was recorded with a 175 with P90s. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
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Guys, please understand I'm not arguing for one or the other model. I bought a Wes model 15 years ago, thinking it would be everything I wanted, since Wes had one and sounded so great. My initial mild disappointment was mostly resolved with the pickup swap.
Re output, it might be higher than the 57, but this is from the website:
"High Wind Imperial® Humbucker Pickup
Price: $175.00
Our High Wind Humbucker Pickups are similar in overall tone to the Imperials, but their higher output retains some of the airiness and balanced tone of the originals, while pushing your amplifier into distortion faster and harder. Creamy treble, smooth and fat bottom end with softer attack and lots of sustain. Alnico 2 magnets.
Neck 8.4K, Bridge 9.4K"
I put the neck model in.
If I can manage a CES one day, I will, but I can pretty much cop the Wes tones I'm after, with the exception of what I think must be those earlier recordings with either a Jazzmaster, or some P90 equipped guitars, that have a bit more sizzle and reduced low end... might also have been the tweed (deluxe?) at Van Gelder's studio. Don't quote me on that last bit, I'm not a historian.
I put soundposts in a '76 Byrdland once, seemed to cut down on the feedback, don't recall that it made a big difference in tone. That was a brighter sounding guitar anyway, but I was playing it through a Mesa Mark I with an EV SRO (I received a small inheritance in my early 20's that went towards those items, but had to part with both of them as a poor grad student.)
Re putting a TOM on the JS, might be worth it, but the ebony bridge on my GB10 sounds great and doesn't influence clarity or sustain in the least - go figure!
Thanks for the good discussion - true gentlemen, all of you
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Its defiantly fair to say disappointment can be had from any maker. I think Anderson's Archtops look plain ugly and boring, I would never buy one on its looks. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Originally Posted by yebdox
Guys, please understand I'm not arguing for one or the other model.
Hey this is the internet ... we should be at each others throat over which is best and fast approaching Godwin's law
He said with much sarcasm
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I'm coming after you for what you said about my mother. Or my amp. Or my playing. Or my choice in politicians. Or whether I'm crazy for collecting nail and skin samples of famous players.
Or....
Look, you either agree with me completely, or die.
Your choice. Don't make the wrong one:/
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Its my way, or the hard way
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I am SOO going to burn forever in hell for all the covetousness--the root of all sins--I'm feeling!
But maybe I'll be redeemed since my covetousness is in fact exceeded by my sheer pleasure at your delight in this fine instrument. You have a musical partner for all time there, perhaps one that even a child or grand-child will be able to enjoy and appreciate, and by then that finely aged wood will be just entering its prime.
If it's anything like my old Martin D28, at about 30 years out the guitar really figures out who it is, and the player who can love that has a real romance on his hands. No doubt, your L5 will be like that. Never growing old, just growing deep.
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thanks l-s!
if it gets any better i don't know what i'll do
i've spent the last ten years using everything (almost) except an L-5CES - and i had to sell 2 of my three much loved guitars to get it (a campellone and an andersen)
so it hasn't come easy or cheap
its amazing how well it handles amplification - and how it manages to balance the thickest bottom end i've ever heard (with no significant feedback issues) with the thickest top end. and the neck is the fastest friendliest neck i've ever played (and i've had two sadowsky guitars)
just hope my shoulder (which used to be bad but hasn't been for years now) holds upLast edited by Groyniad; 11-02-2015 at 05:32 PM.
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A lovely instrument. Congrats! And, I really appreciate your description about the weight, feel, and "gravitas" of an L5 and how that translates into the sound. It is my experience, too. I have a Hutchins era L5, and I, too had to sell a nice Campellone as well as a Gibson USA ES 175 to get it. Absolutely no regrets!
A few weeks ago I traded my Benedetto Bravo to acquire a new (priced as "used") ES 175 '59 reissue VOS. It's much lighter than the heavy Gibson USA version I owned previously, but really has that substantial feel and the perfect, classic 175 sound. So, I suppose that weight has something to do with the character, but other factors, such as materials and finish type make a difference as well.
Enjoy it Groyniad. They are a treasure. I'll never part with mine.
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