Ibanez JP20 vs Gibson ES-165

**SamBooka** · 10-03-2015, 10:22 PM

If you had a ES 165 would you trade it straight up for a JP20? If you had a JP 20 would you trade it for an ES 165? I know they're completely different beasts but they should be in the same ballpark in terms of value. Thoughts?

**jzucker** · 10-03-2015, 10:23 PM

IMO, the ES165 sounds and plays way better than a JP20. It will hold it's value better too.

**Greentone** · 10-03-2015, 11:37 PM

I very much enjoy them both. One is a 24-3/4" scale 16" body guitar (165), the other is a 25-1/2" scale 16" body guitar (JP20). I prefer the 165, even though I play 25-1/2" guitars exclusively, these days.

Joe D has both. He can comment very meaningfully.

**Max405** · 10-04-2015, 01:45 AM

It would be a tough decision but I would trade an ES165 straight up for a JP 20. The guitars are very similar in greatness. The JP is hand signed by Joe Pass. It is more difficult to come by. You can always get a 165/175 down the line. The JP is a unique guitar. It's not a toy. It has the most unique sound. Everything is clear. Not thin, clear. I can't over emphasize the sustain on this guitar.
Im really glad I am fortunate enough to be able to own both.
Great topic.
JD

**Stringswinger** · 10-04-2015, 03:07 AM

I have a JP-20 and two ES -175's. They are all great guitars. The later ES-165's with the floating pickup do not work for me at all. I would rather have a JP-20 than one of those all day long. The earlier 165's with the built in humbucker is a different story. As I prefer the short scale and know that having Gibson on the headstock makes selling easier, I would choose the 165.

Even though the JP-20 is more rare, their undeservedly bad reputation does make the 165 a safer bet money wise.

One thing that I am sure of is this, either one is a fine jazz guitar.

TH · 10-04-2015, 05:11 AM

I'm in the JP camp here, with a serious reservation: I'd change the pickup.
Very personal taste but I'm not at all concerned with any value beyond the playability and sound. The neck on a JP20 fits my hand like a glove, the body has a depth that my arm cradles and it has an acousticly live quality that I feel against my body. The plugged in sound is also personal and mine has a Gibson PAF. I do like Gibson ES's but in my hands, the Pass feels more of that inspiring woody snap and warmth.

Bear in mind that I'm not a collector so I'm not as hip as some others when it comes to an opinion based on what others think. When I bought mine in the early 80's, it was the appeal of a unique instrument inspired by the D'Aquisto's of the day. I still hold that in that genre, the Ibanez is one of the best.
If you're a collector, it's really important what other people think. If you're a player, it's just an instrument; get to know what you can do. If an instrument doesn't get in the way of your music and lets you express, it's worth everything you can afford. If it inspires you to do more, it's a keeper.
David

**Archie** · 10-04-2015, 10:17 AM

I would trade straight for a JP-20 all day. Something about the Jp-20, the D'aquiston neck, body design etc, the hi end japanese quality and finish, its a wonderful guitar.

165's come around all the time. The Jp-20 holds its value well, 165's have already bottomed out whilst Jp-20's are going up.

**jzucker** · 10-04-2015, 11:54 AM

not to offend any of the JP20 fans, but joe didn't like or even play the guitar except minimally when contractually obligated to. The 165 is a great, single pickup 175 guitar and nails the Joe Pass, Pat Metheny and traditional jazz guitar tones. It's got the classic 175 woodyness that is missing from the Ibanez.

I have a GB10 and have owned many ibanez archtops and I think their quality control is way better than Gibsons is but in terms of the classic 60s jazz guitar tones, the 165 and 175 just have it in spades over any of the ibanez jazz axes.

Just as a reference, I have owned GB5s, GB10s, GB100s, GB200s, Scofields, AS-200s, AM-200s, FG100s, etc. None of them were in the same league with the Gibson 165 or 175 in terms of classic jazz guitar tone.

Don't get me wrong. The ibanez guitars have incredible necks and fabulous fretwork. Many comparable gibsons need a fret level or other neck work even straight from the factory but once they are dialed in, i'll take the gibson any day.

It also depends on what tone you're after of course. If you like the more modern, smooth-jazz or funky jazz tones of benson and the like, the ibanez guitars may be a better choice for you but if you like the classic sounds of Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, early metheny, '60s Joe Pass, I'd go for the Gibson

Dutchbopper · 10-04-2015, 12:12 PM

Years ago I wanted to buy one and had someone over that was selling one. It looked gorgeous and felt great but it took me just a few seconds after plugging in that the JP 20 was not for me. It sounded tinny to my ears and nothing like I wanted to hear. I remember being very disapponted. The guitar was great cosemetically and well built but I could not get over the sound. And I know I am not alone on this. Many players consider the pick-up placement on the guitar wrong. Even Joe sounded not so good on it. Nothing like his super classic sound in the 60s on his 175.

An older 165 would be my choice if I had to make it. The newer ones with the floaters sound pretty bad.

The JP 20 is also quite expensive. You can get an FG 100 at half the price and I like that one way better. It's the only Ibanez archtop I own. Mine is from 83.

To each his own. But this is my answer to the OP. Obviously others hear this guitar differently.

DB

**Max405** · 10-04-2015, 12:13 PM

Jack, no offense taken at all. You know I love you man.
Has Pass gone on record saying he didn't like or play the guitar?
Why would he help design it the way it 'twas if he didn't like it?
None of this makes sense to me.
I understand that it doesn't sound like a 175. I think that's good. I love the 175/165. I plan on not being without one. But I wouldn't want to be without my JP. I realize I'm still on my honeymoon with it but it has dazzled me more than any other guitar has.
JD

Originally Posted by jzucker

not to offend any of the JP20 fans, but joe didn't like or even play the guitar except minimally when contractually obligated to. The 165 is a great, single pickup 175 guitar and nails the Joe Pass, Pat Metheny and traditional jazz guitar tones. It's got the classic 175 woodyness that is missing from the Ibanez.

I have a GB10 and have owned many ibanez archtops and I think their quality control is way better than Gibsons is but in terms of the classic 60s jazz guitar tones, the 165 and 175 just have it in spades over any of the ibanez jazz axes.

Just as a reference, I have owned GB5s, GB10s, GB100s, GB200s, Scofields, AS-200s, AM-200s, FG100s, etc. None of them were in the same league with the Gibson 165 or 175 in terms of classic jazz guitar tone.

Don't get me wrong. The ibanez guitars have incredible necks and fabulous fretwork. Many comparable gibsons need a fret level or other neck work even straight from the factory but once they are dialed in, i'll take the gibson any day.

It also depends on what tone you're after of course. If you like the more modern, smooth-jazz or funky jazz tones of benson and the like, the ibanez guitars may be a better choice for you but if you like the classic sounds of Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, early metheny, '60s Joe Pass, I'd go for the Gibson

**jzucker** · 10-04-2015, 12:28 PM

Joe didn't really help design it in any great detail from what I understand. He had minimal input and wasn't all that technical of a guy. I think there were mis-communications along the way and he didn't care for it. I don't think he ever said anything publicly due to N/D agreements. If you look through ibanez' history, there are several examples of this. They made a barney kessel guitar which he hated. They also made a Pat Metheny prototype and then later his namesake guitar which he didn't care for and used only when contractually obligated to. That's why after years, it was discontinued and re-imagined into the PM200. For many years, he was playing the cheap, korean version rather than his high-end, japanese signature model.

I have heard from reliable sources that Benson gets his GB10 guitars' pickups rewound and re-magnetted because ibanez switched to ceramic pickups and high windings.

Of course, Gibson has a questionable record dealing with signature models as well but it seemed that Joe preferred other guitars to the Ibanez.

Again, not saying the ibanez was crap by any means. It's just not the classic Joe Pass tone.

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

Jack, no offense taken at all. You know I love you man.
Has Pass gone on record saying he didn't like or play the guitar?
Why would he help design it the way it 'twas if he didn't like it?
None of this makes sense to me.
I understand that it doesn't sound like a 175. I think that's good. I love the 175/165. I plan on not being without one. But I wouldn't want to be without my JP. I realize I'm still on my honeymoon with it but it has dazzled me more than any other guitar has.
JD

**Stringswinger** · 10-04-2015, 12:32 PM

There are a few people who have said that they heard that Joe Pass did not like the JP-20, but from what I have read, it is all hearsay. A few years ago, I was interviewing some friends and family of Joe Pass with the intention of writing his biography. (I have since abandoned the idea, but will transcribe my interviews for that project and publish them in Just Jazz Guitar magazine). I have read about every interview that Joe ever did. The only non-hearsay report that I have read or heard regarding the JP-20 was from a student of Joe's who said that Joe told him that he preferred the ES-175 to the JP-20 (and Joe made the recommendation to that student to save the extra money and get the Gibson). I believe that. I also prefer the ES-175 to the JP-20. Add the fact that in the end Joe did go back to the Gibson 175 and I think Joe Pass's preference is clear.

But I also think the JP-20 is a superb guitar and I bet that Joe Pass thought it was pretty good as well. Guitars are largely a personal choice. Someone like ATH, who is not a great fan of the dark, fat Gibson sound (Ibanez and Guild archtops are thinner and brighter in general) will prefer the JP-20. Gibson fans like Jack, Dutchbopper and myself will prefer the Gibson (I suspect that I tolerate the sound of Ibanez and guild Archtops more than Dutchbopper and Jack).

To the OP, the value is probably the same. If resale value up the road is not of the utmost importance to you, play them both back to back. Choose the one that inspires you the most.

Dutchbopper · 10-04-2015, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Of course, Gibson has a questionable record dealing with signature models as well but it seemed that Joe preferred other guitars to the Ibanez.

Jack, do you happen to know why Barney Kessel did not like his Gibson BK signature model? As you know, I am lusting for one of these and could not possibly imagine what's not to like. At least not in the sound department.

**jzucker** · 10-04-2015, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

Jack, do you happen to know why Barney Kessel did not like his Gibson BK signature model? As you know, I am lusting for one of these and could not possibly imagine what's not to like. At least not in the sound department.

unfortunately, i didn't know about the gibson when I had a few lessons with him so I never asked him. I did talk to him about his guitar preferences in general and I know that he hated humbucking pickups. He loved the CC pickup and liked the P90 and thought that gibson had sold their soul when they switched to humbuckers so I'm guessing *that* had something to do with it. He felt that the hum and noise were part of the soul of the instrument and that the humbucker was a terrible compromise, erroring on the side of dull, lifeless tone. He was, of course, extremely opinionated.

I have 2 BKs now. One of them is in the shop for a refret. When I get it back, I'll do a demo comparing them.

**jzucker** · 10-04-2015, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

(I suspect that I tolerate the sound of Ibanez and guild Archtops more than Dutchbopper and Jack).

I actually like Ibanez guitar tones. I like the Bensons, Methenys, scofields, FG100s. I'm not a huge fan of the lawsuit guitars and I don't care a whole lot for the Joe Pass but I know folks who do and who get great sounds of of them such as Bob Roetker.

**vinnyv1k** · 10-04-2015, 01:04 PM

I talked to Barney once. I don't think he hated the BK model. It was the company that made it that he wasn't very fond of.

**jzucker** · 10-04-2015, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

I talked to Barney once. I don't think he hated the BK model. It was the company that made it that he wasn't very fond of.

He always played Gibson so there was more going on than that.

**ESCC** · 10-04-2015, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

He always played Gibson so there was more going on than that.

Possibly, but he did black out the Gibson name with tape when photos were taken.

**vinnyv1k** · 10-04-2015, 02:47 PM

I asked him why he blacked out the Gibson logo on his 350. He was not happy with Gibson IMO. Later in life he softened and said it was because he made so many mods to the 350 that it was no longer a Gibson but when I talked to him he seemed not happy. He did not elaborate to me to as to why just saying I am not advertising for Gibson. His smile went away to a very serious look when I asked him. I quickly went back to advise questions. He was a very intelligent man.

**Max405** · 10-04-2015, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I actually like Ibanez guitar tones. I like the Bensons, Methenys, scofields, FG100s. I'm not a huge fan of the lawsuit guitars and I don't care a whole lot for the Joe Pass but I know folks who do and who get great sounds of of them such as Bob Roetker.

Jack great set of clips. Bob is getting exactly the sound I hear with mine. The reason is, he is playing it between the pup and the neck. I'm telling you that's the G spot for that guitar.
Aren't guys tired of all the guitars that sound the same? I don't want my JP sounding like a 175. Plus listen to the wonderful sustain he gets out of his notes. Clear and full and full of sustain. Magic.

**Greentone** · 10-04-2015, 05:04 PM

+1 on what JD says about playing on the neck side of the pickup. Also, +1 on variety in archtop tone. If everyone sounded like, say, Pat Martino, it would be a pretty dull world in jazz guitar...not to take anything away from the great Mr. Martino.

**vinnyv1k** · 10-04-2015, 06:05 PM

Joe you got a very special axe that is making you extremely happy which makes me happy. BTW I feel the same about Blacky. I have bonded with that axe big time. I feel your vib in it. My wife is asking me why I am not playing Marilyn.

**Max405** · 10-04-2015, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

+1 on what JD says about playing on the neck side of the pickup. Also, +1 on variety in archtop tone. If everyone sounded like, say, Pat Martino, it would be a pretty dull world in jazz guitar...not to take anything away from the great Mr. Martino.

GT, Your on the money right there.

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Joe you got a very special axe that is making you extremely happy which makes me happy. BTW I feel the same about Blacky. I have bonded with that axe big time. I feel your vib in it. My wife is asking me why I am not playing Marilyn.

It warms my heart when I hear you are happy with the classiest, fastest playing and truest L5 I've ever touched. Play it in a tuxedo.
I do love this JP.

Amazingly enough, the JP and 165 have similar specs but they are guitars with very different personalities. It is clear that the majority of people in the Jazz Guitar world prefer the 175/165. That's OK. Because I love it to. And its obvious why the JP20 isn't made anymore. But guys, if you want a truly special guitar that has a tone of its own, That has a neck made for god, and it has one of the grand Masters Original Hand signed signature, The JP20 is the ONLY guitar that fits the bill. If you really want one, if you find one reasonably priced, Jump on it. They aint making them anymore..