Changing to Low Action - Does it affect intonation?

[Max405]

Hi,
I like my action REALLY low.
A couple of Guitars that I've purchased recently had to be adjusted to accommodate my requirements.
Once we adjusted the action and I played the guitars for a while, I noticed that I needed to move the floating bridge to dial in the intonation. I thought that because I had adjusted the action that this had a negative impact on the guitars' intonation. But then I realized, The 1st guitar had a fretted note that was flat compared to the 12th fret harmonic so I had to move the bridge forward toward the neck (3/8" from where the Bridge was positioned for about 20 years!!). The bridge saddle had to be recut down 1/8" and reshaped to follow the radious contour of the neck on this guitar as well.

The second guitar was exactly the opposite, the Fretted note was sharp compared to the 12th fret harmonic so I had to move the bridge backward around 3/16". No adjustment to the bridge was necessary on this guitar.

In both cases, the pickup poles were still far enough away from the strings to NOT cause magnetic intonation problems.

Is my ridiculous requirement for low action causing the intonation to need adjustment?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Joe D.

[AlainJazz]

I would say that this is normal. I frequently readjust intonation, especially after making changes to action (which I do frequently as well).

[neatomic]

yes changing a guitars action will affect it's intonation..with the typical archtop rosewood/ebony saddle bridge, the e strings are usually lined up intonation wise with the hope everything else falls into place…depending on the string gauge sometimes the b or g is slightly out..you chose to have micro surgery performed to get it better..a good idea

btw i like low action as well…& trussrod adjustments are integral to the procedure too…

guitar tone is really the summation of so so many fine details..and that's before the player even puts his hands on it!!! haha


cheers

[Gramps]

Your wish or need for low action isn't "ridiculous" but you have less wiggle room when your guitar shifts due to seasonal or weather changes. That's why it's a good idea to learn to make adjustments yourself and just adjust when needed.

[TOMMO]

By pressing down the string to the fretboard you are changing the tension of the string (and thus pitch) and action (height of the string and distance it has to travel to the fretboard) has an effect on how much the pitch will be changed by fretting so you will need to compensate for that. Same goes for when you go for a different type or gauge of string. Gauges are obvious for sure - but going for a different type and / or brand may have the same effect because tension is mainly affected by the core of the string (on wound strings anyway) and its tension and different brands / types have different diameters regarding the che core.

[vinnyv1k]

This used to drive me insane. I would spend hours making sure open & 12th fret was as spot on as possible. Now as long as it sounds good to my ear I won't even check it. Your ear isn't as critical as a chromatic tuner. I am just saying just let your ear be the judge not the tuner. Unlike a piano a guitar is never perfectly in tune but yes if you can hear it you must deal with the bridge setup and yes everything affects intonation on a guitar. Wood bridge saddles are a nightmare to get spot on.

[Max405]

Vin,
The type of stuff that I play (you know it well) is so all over the neck with chords and melody at the same time that intonation problems rear there ugly heads with ease.
I agree, I don't sit there and stress over what the tuner says. I only let it verify what I am hearing. Then I use it help correct the problem.
Thanks Bro.
Joe D.

This used to drive me insane. I would spend hours making sure open & 12th fret was as spot on as possible. Now as long as it sounds good to my ear I won't even check it. Your ear isn't as critical as a chromatic tuner. I am just saying just let your ear be the judge not the tuner. Unlike a piano a guitar is never perfectly in tune but yes if you can hear it you must deal with the bridge setup and yes everything affects intonation on a guitar. Wood bridge saddles are a nightmare to get spot on.

[rpguitar]

In theory, any adjustment to a string changes intonation. But most variables cause only a nominal, imperceptible change that's not worth worrying about. Once it's properly adjusted, I re-check intonation only when I introduce a new string gauge or type.

[Greentone]

My only guitar with super low action was an early 60s Gibson SG Custom (fretless wonder). The frets--from the factory--were practically nonexistent because of the super-low, flat profile that Gibson used for _that_ guitar. The action on the guitar when I bought it (swapped for it, actually) was VERY low. The intonation was very much within the range on the ABR-1 bridge.

More of an issue, for me, has been intonation on the guitars that I like to keep high action on--acoustic archtops. I like to attempt to play something approaching, but not quite up to Freddie Green standards. A _high_ action definitely affects intonation.

[Max405]

Your wish or need for low action isn't "ridiculous" but you have less wiggle room when your guitar shifts due to seasonal or weather changes. That's why it's a good idea to learn to make adjustments yourself and just adjust when needed.

Gramps, Yes I agree. I'd be broke if I could make those little tweaks here and there..

yes changing a guitars action will affect it's intonation..with the typical archtop rosewood/ebony saddle bridge, the e strings are usually lined up intonation wise with the hope everything else falls into place…depending on the string gauge sometimes the b or g is slightly out..you chose to have micro surgery performed to get it better..a good idea
btw i like low action as well…& trussrod adjustments are integral to the procedure too…
guitar tone is really the summation of so so many fine details..and that's before the player even puts his hands on it!!! haha
cheers

Neatomic, Thanks for verifying that.

I would say that this is normal. I frequently readjust intonation, especially after making changes to action (which I do frequently as well).

Alain, Thanks for verifying that.

Now I know that its not just these guitars. I guess all guitars are such precision instruments that many things can change if you start messing with them..

Thanks a lot Guys!
Joe D

[Max405]

In theory, any adjustment to a string changes intonation. But most variables cause only a nominal, imperceptible change that's not worth worrying about. Once it's properly adjusted, I re-check intonation only when I introduce a new string gauge or type.

Thanks Roger. Both of these guitars that I am referencing needed to have had large adjustments made to them. So maybe the after effects are exponential. I don't know. Bottom line, I learned something so its a good day when that happens!

My only guitar with super low action was an early 60s Gibson SG Custom (fretless wonder). The frets--from the factory--were practically nonexistent because of the super-low, flat profile that Gibson used for _that_ guitar. The action on the guitar when I bought it (swapped for it, actually) was VERY low. The intonation was very much within the range on the ABR-1 bridge.

More of an issue, for me, has been intonation on the guitars that I like to keep high action on--acoustic archtops. I like to attempt to play something approaching, but not quite up to Freddie Green standards. A _high_ action definitely affects intonation.

GT. I have a feeling a Freddie Green fan might have owned my HJS before I did. That would be the only reason (other than it just sat unplayed) for the Substantial bridge movement. I am not kidding, I had to move the bridge more than 3/8's of an inch. Now I have a tan line on the top where the bridge was for 20 years that annoys the crap out me (until I play it, then the annoyance turns to elation). Thanks for helping me through this..

Thanks my guys
Joe D.

[rpguitar]

I had to move the bridge more than 3/8's of an inch. Now I have a tan line on the top where the bridge was for 20 years that annoys the crap out me...

I've been in that exact position, too. I chalk it up to prior owners not having a clue how to set up their guitars. I have a couple of very nice archtops that were far from being ideally playable when I got them, yet they had lovingly worn necks as if they'd been played forever. Ignorance is bliss? I wish I had that, sometimes. I, unfortunately, felt the need to have them re-fretted, re-nutted, and planed. Now they play like they should.

At $300+ a pop, I don't do that reflexively. But each time I have - usually after months of consternation - it's paid big dividends in the result.

[edh]

Couldn't the tan lines be buffed out?

[Max405]

Couldn't the tan lines be buffed out?

Hi,
The Guitar is a Blond. The wood darkens naturally due to exposure to light. Any surface that's covered will not darken. The tan line is under the clear and unfortunately cant be buffed out unless the clear is removed. Then the guitar would have to be refinished.
Joe D

[Marty Grass]

Don't touch those tan lines! They'll take care of themselves. The guitar isn't complaining about them.

[vinnyv1k]

Just a bikini line.